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wusthoff

This topic contains 12 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Expidia 03/03/2019 at 11:24 am.

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  • #49487

    keith
    Participant
    • Topics: 6
    • Replies: 9

    Now that I have my sharpening process under tight control, I’d love to get #4582  Wusthoff 12″ chef knife for my kitchen. the #4586 is an even better fantasy.  I salivate when I shop them, as I’ve always wanted one. But it’ll blow a hole in my piggy bank. I strike me as rather odd, for look what I spent on the sharpener!

    As an aside, people gasp when they learn what I spent on my WE. Few realize that the WE is a precision instrument, and that such instruments are never cheap. What a brilliant piece of design it is: simple, small, light weight, requires only hand  power, no  oil/wet stone mess, versatile, well supported. The fact that it is a hand operated implement prevents heat buildup on the edge, protecting the steel’s  temper. It does not take the labor out of crafting a fine edge; rather,  it puts maximum precision/accuracy in it. Yet it will quickly generate a  less than premium but serviceable working edge for those in heavy use situations, like food service.   I think the price quite reasonable.

     

    #49488

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
    • Replies: 1794

    Keith, I purchased my first W.E. to sharpen my collection of Wustoff knives.  Since then I have found many Japanese Chef ‘s knives made with, IMO, better steels, at less expensive prices.  I suggest you shop these befoe pulling the trigger on the Wustoff.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #49489

    Organic
    Participant
    • Topics: 17
    • Replies: 837

    I agree with Marc that Japanese chef knives are preferable to European style knives when it comes to cutting performance and edge retention. European knives like Whusthoff are very thick and obtuse by comparison and tend to be made of relatively soft steel by comparison. The flip side of that contrast is that European knives can take a beating and then be brought back to sharpness with a hone while Japanese style knives will chip and crack if used without care.

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #49492

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 276

    I also agree with the other comments (and yours too).  from my experience all my Wusthof knives have weaker steel (at least the ones in my set (all Classics), for me they all tend to shortly after a sharpening session always roll to the left side over the next few weeks.  Clay suggested I try sharpening using a convexing the edge method, but I don’t want to put in that much time sharpening to a convex edge.

    Even my Global Japanese knife set (Molybdenum Vanadium stainless Steel) tends to roll their edge not long after sharpening.  I’ve owned both these sets for many years and at the time it was what I could afford.  The V10 Japanese steels (available on Amazon) I’m told by some of the members here are of a much better grade of steel.  I’d save your money and pick up one of their Chef’s knives to start with (a great V10 Chef can be found in the 150-$200 range)

    I actually bought one recently, but it was straight from Japan (I don’t recommend doing this).  Buy from Amazon as they will protect your purchase (especially, if what you received was not as described).  I have not even cut anything with the knife that I purchased sadly from this very unreliable Japanese source . . .  so I can’t vouch for V10 yet.  My credit card reversed the purchase. but I doubt V10 steel (depending on how its used) would need to be sharpened or freshened up more than once or twice a year.

    I have many expensive folders that come from the factory with convex edges and the first thing I do is use the WE to put on a WE mirrored “regular” edge.

    As soon as my issue with this unreliable company (Honcho Knife-avoid) is resolved I will buy another V10 off Amazon and report back if it holds an edge as good as the experienced members here say it does.

    My Wusthof and Global knives are becoming useless to me.  Seems every few weeks, I need to put them back on the WE and hit them with the 1000 grit stone just to get rid of the roll.  I don’t even go any further with the grit progression anymore as the sharper they are the quicker the steel rolls.  I think I’m up to 20 on their angles and I might need to go even higher.  Factory angle on the Global brand is 15!

    Very soon I’m going to work my way up to 3 VG10 sizes starting with a chef knife first to make sure I’m first happy with a particular brand.  I’ll probably get 3 different brands.

     

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  Expidia.
    #49494

    airscapes
    Participant
    • Topics: 9
    • Replies: 164

    @expidia .. new guy here.. and I know I am way off topic but can you explain “The edge rolls to the left” please.  I mean I can guess what you mean but how do you know?

    Thanks!

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  airscapes.
    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #49497

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 276

    Sure.  keep in mind I’m no expert here.  I purchased my WE almost 1 year ago to the day (Feb 22nd 2018) I probably have sharpened or resharpened 100-150 edges.  I only can pass on my own personal experience.  If the knife is mounted in the WE the blade is pointing towards the ceiling. . . Removing it from the system and holding it in the same position, if I run my finger up the right side of the blade pass the edge it feels fine.  If I do the same on the left side as soon as I hit the edge I feel a burr!  Thats the feeling but its not a burr, its the edge rolling over very slightly.  I’m sure Clay the owner has experienced this especially with softer knife steels.

    A burr is what we strive for when we do an intial profiling of an edge as with the first time we sharpen a knife we keep sharpening on say the right side with maybe a 100 grit stone until we move enough of the steel up and over the edge to form a burr on the left side which tells us we have reached the apex of the edge. If you never reach the apex you will can never reach a high level of edge sharpness that we all seek with this system (or any system). This might take 15 minutes or so of constant stroking (depending on the steel’s hardness) on that one side to start forming the burr on the other side.  Clay and others have posted many instructive Youtube videos on how to first “profile” the edge.  Now when you switch to the other side and start sharpening the right side (with the burr on it) this burr flops over to the other side a lot quicker than it took to intially raise it because its such a thin burr (also called a wire edge)

    Well, if you have ever felt this initial burr, my knives feel exactly the same way after only a few weeks later after sharpening.

    Its not a burr (it just feels like a burr) its actually the very sharp edge flipping (or rolling over) to one side from cutting use.  Then for me its like trying to cut with a butter knife until I resharpen it again.  Even my super steel folders will tend to ever so slightly roll an edge over time.  But the cheaper steel Wusthoffs and the Global knives I own tend to roll and edge quicker than my super steels.

    I’ve discussed this issue here before and experienced members chimed in with ideas to try and resolve my edge rolling issue with my current knife steels to but to no resolution yet.  This is why I’m going to move up to knives made with the harder V10 steels.  There is no panacea with steels though as the harder you go the more prone your super sharp WE can be to micro chipping.  I’m still searching for a trade off of using a higher and higher angles to maybe prevent my super sharp WE edge from rolling.

    I hope I’ve put the above in my own layman’s terms for you!

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #49498

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
    • Replies: 1794

    I’ve discussed this issue here before and experienced members chimed in with ideas to try and resolve my edge rolling issue with my current knife steels to but to no resolution yet. This is why I’m going to move up to knives made with the harder V10 steels. There is no panacea with steels though as the harder you go the more prone your super sharp WE can be to micro chipping. I’m still searching for a trade off of using a higher and higher angles to maybe prevent my super sharp WE edge from rolling. I hope I’ve put the above in my own layman’s terms for you!

    Maybe this article about edge retention VS edge angle will help.

    I’ve started another thread to address “expidia’s rolling edge issue” to not hijack this topic anymore so then we already have.

     

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  MarcH.
    5 users thanked author for this post.
    #49535

    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 33
    • Replies: 1807

    Interesting article, Marc.  I would have asked a few more questions regarding their tests and the results thereof.  I think that edge durability is also to tied to the forces the edge is subjected to.  I think it’s commonly accepted that very acute-angle edges require less force to cut through almost any given medium and it seems to me that the reduced forces would translate into less edge damage.  When I’ve sharpened the edges of some of my better knives to more acute angles, the edges were more likely to suffer chip damage.  I don’t know how one would design a similar test that would include another variable like this.  Or if it would change anything.  Maybe try to find an equivalent force for each edge angle to cut the same material in the same way.  Then run the test using these equivalent forces.  Hmmm.

    The force used in the test (50N) is about 11.2 lbf.  This seems as good a number as any, but I’d like to know how these edge angles would cut without the slicing action – the “corner of the phone book test” and how much force would be required.  Maybe a stack of 5 cards?  Here, a very acute included angle (and/or thinness) would seem to have a huge advantage.

    The text says that the card stock has 5% silica and in parentheses it says “sand.”  Actually, I think good card stock has a certain percentage of clay, which I think is what they meant.  Clay is what gives magazine paper the gloss that improves images and readability.  There is some abrasive quality to the minerals, whatever they are, and this is what dulls our EDC’s while cutting corrugated cardboard.

    Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, as this has been my belief for a very long time.

     

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  tcmeyer.
    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #49552

    keith
    Participant
    • Topics: 6
    • Replies: 9

    Wow. Very good stuff, guys. Thanks for the heads up. I’ll have to reconsider the Wusthoff.

    Keith

    #49564

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
    • Replies: 1794

    PM sent to keith

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

    #49573

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 276

    Thanks TC that article was over my head, but you summarized it great.  I’ve moved up to 22 degrees on my Wusthofs.  Makes sense though that the more acute the angle the easier its going to slice through kitchen chores and hence the edge should last longer.  I’m trying to reach a happy angle medium on the Wusthofs and my Globals where the edges do not roll so quickly.  My notes showed me that I had freshened the edges only in December.

    #49597

    Todd Simpson
    Participant
    • Topics: 0
    • Replies: 45

    I have a few Wusthof “grand prix” kitchen knives that I bought at least 20 years ago.  They are nice knives, easy to sharpen and respond well to the steel.  They’ve been through the dishwasher a thousand times.

    The only problem is that huge bolster eventually needs to be thinned if you want to avoid a recurve.  If I was replacing them, I would buy the Ikon version without the bolster.  Although, a couple of weeks ago I was shopping for a set of steak knives and chose the Shun Kaji over the Ikon because I found the Ikon handle was too fine for my large hands, plus the Kaji has a nicer balance.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Todd Simpson.
    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #49606

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 276

    You could also add a sharpening choil just before the bolster as with certain knife designs I find the plastic sides of the paddles don’t allow me to get close to the bolster causing a recurve.

    Recently, I added one to a Syderco folder where most Spydercos don’t have choils.  I just happened to have a round diamond hacksaw blade (used for ceramic tiles) on hand, but a dremel with a round stone will do the job too and faster..

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