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micro bevel to eliminate tear-out -Spyderco Paramilitary CPM-S110V

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  • #57334
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 67
    • Replies: 2629

    The functionality of these files as an accurate hardness testing method is purely subjective.  The qualitativeness, quantitativeness and accuracy of their resulting hardness readings are more like “horseshoes and handgrenades” where “a miss is as close as a mile” and doesn’t really mean anything.

    Yes HRc 65 is harder than HRc 60.  Just like $5.00 is more than $1.00.  Five times more is a big difference.  The difference between HRc 60 and HRc 65 is miles apart, too.

    True hardness testing is a precise scientific mechanical testing process requiring a sophisticated hydraulic press and precision measuring devices.

    I do recognize that improperly executed final edge sharpening processes can indeed overheat and may disrupt edge metal harnesses.  I just believe it’s not as much an issue as may be being suggested.  Quality knife makers I expect have learned how to produce quality sharp knives.  That’s why they’re still successful in business with recognized names in this industry.

    I look to take full responsibility for my personal sharpening outcomes.  Only after repeated failures with multiple sharpening methods, and techniques, while employing various sharpening mediums will I look to the steel for being the fault.  In my experiences I’ve found my failures to achieve sharpness results I seek is my failure to figure out the proper sharpening method and not an issue with the steel.  This can be an issue no matter which sharpening method or device(s) you are employing.  It’s not the fault of you Wicked Edge sharpener.  It’s a user/operator/sharpening issue.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    #57335
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 7
    • Replies: 355

    I can’t speak about the files other people have, but mine work fine. Hopefully he didn’t get a fake set. There are better files that we can buy but I couldn’t afford to spend that much money. According to what the manufacturers say the hardness of their blades are, my files show to be true so far. Of course, I don’t own knives from every manufacturer. So, I can only talk about my own experiences.

    As far as the possibility of dry belt sharpening ruining the heat treat of blade edges, that seems to be common knowledge among the experts. Dr. Larrin Thomas of Knife Steel Nerds wrote an article about it.

    #57336
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 67
    • Replies: 2629

    Yes, the steel hardness testing files do work.  But what they tell you is purely subjective, and speculative.  You’ll make of the test  results what you want.  Interpret them as you wish.

    Without scientific controls, and standards everything else is strictly academic.  That is open to your own interpretation. That is, make of it what you choose. Really it’s just a hope or a guess. When your results and my results differ they’re both thrown out.  Only those results comparable to repeatable scientific standards with repeatable scientific controls matter.  Everything else is just a story and an argument.

    You’ll make of your test results whatever you want. To fit your hopes and needs. If you’re comfortable with that, that’s up to you.  That doesn’t make them accurate, real and true.

    Yes there are articles and documents recognizing that this kind damage and this edge hardness issue exists.  That doesn’t mean that unrealized knife sharpening results are due to this issue.  I prefer to stick with Occam’s razor.  That my poorly sharpened knife edge outcomes are the results of my poorly executed technique and outcomes and they’re not due to bad knife steel.  At least, not till after I’ve exercised everything within my ability and that all else’s failed.  I’m not one to make excuses or to look for the easy way out for my failures.

    000Robert, we could take this argument back and forth forever with no resolution.  The point I’m trying to make is not for you but for all other W.E. Forum participants.  Those looking for knife sharpening advice with their newly acquired W.E. sharpeners.  In my many years using my WEPS setups I’ve not yet come across a knife or a steel that I couldn’t sharpen well, with my W.E. setups, when using the correct technique with the proper sharpening mediums for that steel.  I’ve not yet come across a steel I couldn’t sharpen with exceptable and respectable outcomes.  That is a steel I had to claim had a problem with it.   One preventing me from sharpening it with my WEPS setup(s).

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    #57337
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 7
    • Replies: 355

    The files are just steel just like blades are steel. The steel is tempered to have a particular hardness, whether blades, files, or whatever. But sometimes things go awry. Maybe he got some bad files? Anyway, opinion has nothing to do with it.

    So far, the steel hardness from Buck, Kershaw, and CPK have checked correct with my files. Sure, they are just an estimate with a 5 RCH difference. If a manufacturer says the hardness is 61RCH for instance, my 60 file skates and my 65 file bites. Of course, I don’t know if it’s exactly 61, but that’s good enough for me.

    As far as the dry belt grinder heat treat issue, I’m talking about brand new knives and knives that I haven’t sharpened. So, my sharpening has nothing to do with the issue. But it’s an easy fix – just reprofile/sharpen the blade until you get down to some well-tempered steel. The problem is that a lot of people, especially noobs, that have problems with a steel, blame the steel because they don’t know about the dry belt grinder issue.

    Luckily those of us that have Wicked Edge sharpening systems don’t have that problem. 👍

    • This reply was modified 12 months ago by 000Robert.
    #57339
    Henry
    Participant
    • Topics: 4
    • Replies: 28

    All,

    Thanks for all the commentary in this topic which has taken a left turn down a rabbit hole of files and determining a steel actual hardness.  All the above  comments are fabulous!

    My biggest takeaway is that I whole heartedly agree with Marc that we really can’t blame the steel so quickly for what’s most likely user-error or let’s rephrase as lack of user deep understanding of proper manipulation of all the variables involved with getting the desired edge.

    I continue to break in the diamond stones, improve my strokes, pressure, attention to details while gaining confidence if not small incremental gains in getting desired results. I am still plagued with edge chip / tear-out on some blades, but will continue the learning journey.

    As an aside, and I will start another thread on this, I did buy and receive the Shapton stones from eBay that Marc seems to like and must say, although it’s a bit messy, I’m loving the results.

    Shapton Pro Kuromaku Stones Pack for Wicked Edge Sharpening Systems 220-30000,

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shapton-Pro-Kuromaku-Stones-Pack-for-Wicked-Edge-Sharpening-Systems-220-30000-/133065052304?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

    I’ve got lots of good knives to sharpen, and feel confident enough now to start working on all but my exotic powder steel Japanese knives with diamond stones. Based on Marc’s experience ruining Mayobi knives using diamonds, I am not going there!

    As the Germans say, “step by step”….

    Peace all. Happy holidays, merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, or joy to you in what ever you bay believe or celebrate.

    I look forward posting a new thread that will be titled something like “ A novice step’s up the learning curve and gets better results; here are the lessons learned”.

    <b>Let the journey and this discussion continue</b>!

    • This reply was modified 12 months ago by Henry.
    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #57341
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 7
    • Replies: 355

    Sounds good. I would reprofile/sharpen a blade a few times and give it my best before I would give up on the blade.

    #57350
    Henry
    Participant
    • Topics: 4
    • Replies: 28

    I’ve got an interesting twist / update to the theme of microbevels….

    Be careful what you decide to micro-bevel. It may be a permanent geometry.

    So, as I progress and get more experience and confidence as well as broken in stones, I’m moving to some of my better knives while still avoiding the powdered steels… I decided to go at my Shun Yanagiba which has been hand, whet stone sharpened for probably 25 years. It’s a VG-10 steel and it has had a micro-bevel for a long time. When I did that, it was done to ease sharpening and make quick work of refining it back to what I thought was sharp. Now, it was phone book paper push-cutting sharp, but I wanted to restore the knife to its original geometry with a 16 deg primary bevel.

    What a F2c*ing pain in the A$$ that was! No kidding, I probably put 5-6 hours in on grinding away at 100 grit diamond to finally hit the apex. It literally took me 2 days with multiple breaks between grinding sessions so ( have no exact hour count).  I tried to keep the pressure light in spite of cursing in multiple languages in my head as I ground away. I had the knife in the low angle adapter and of course was only grinding a single side. Occasionally, after a few hours of thinking I was close to the apex,  I’d break out the 3k and lightly stoke the backside ( flat, non-ground) to break any burr.  Of course, this was a mental exercise  of futility and I hadn’t hit the apex. Finally, after what seemed like my 100,000’th look at the apex on the usb scope, I was really really really close and could smell the fine edge wanting to appear. Yet alas, I grind and grind, edge leading, edge trailing, scrubbing, cross cross to try and introduce “smaller areas that need to be broken off”. I’d flip the stone upside down to try and use as close to 100% of the surface area as possible. I’d swap out to the other 100, again, in efforts to use all 100 grit stone surface evenly, or as evenly as possible. Eventually I thought I had eliminated any or almost the entire micro bevel and moved to the 200 stones as I kissed the apex.

    For some clarification, I’d guess the initial micro bevel was at max 1 mm wide while the primary bevel is maybe 4 mm ( I didn’t actually measure…)

    There are 4 points to this note:

    1. Careful when deciding to use a micro bevel.  It’s really permanent unless you have the patience of Jobe and want to put in the effort required to restore the original geometry. I really should have gone to my Tormek to do that work, but I was interested in gaining WE experience.

    2. Is VG 10 really that hard to deal with with diamonds? I had sharpened 2 other shun vg10 blades quite easily. A paring knife and the mate utility knife.

    3. Could I possibly have worn out the 100 grit diamond stones in this endeavor? the stones don’t really seem worn out, they’re still making dust, but if a stone is expected to last 200-600 sharpening based on some bell curve of user skill/tactic and amount of steel removed, I’m certainly guessing these 100’s are, um, at least well worn in!

    4. Lock that micro-adjust jamb nut tight and, realize that with enough steel removal your angle will change and you may want to adjust your angle slightly to stay on 16.00 deg.

    Late in my second day of grinding, I broke out the phone, hot Amazon, and ordered some 50/80 stones that I’ve already semi-broken in on my beater cheap steel survival knife. The initial 50 stokes per stone surface were really quite painful to listen to, but eventually that very course/agressive stone set seemed to settle in and with reasonable technique put a quite nice edge on some cheap presumably Chinese steel. I can’t imagine I’d ever hit a quality knife anywhere near the apex with the 50/80, but had I had it while re-profiling the Yanagiba, I probably would have used it in hopes of saving hours and a lot of frustration let alone 100g stone wear trying to restore the original geometry.

    So, how would you all go about restoring a VG10 Yanagiba to original geometry? Would you bother?

    Do you use microbevels with intentions to making maintenue sharpening easier and not even thinking about any desire to go back to the initial geometry? 

    – edit was to use forum formatting bold vs. IPad text bold which does not actually bold the text…

    Cheers,

    Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah , and / or happy holidays

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Henry.
    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #57352
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 7
    • Replies: 355

    I’ve got an interesting twist / update to the theme of microbevels…. Be careful what you decide to micro-bevel. It may be a permanent geometry. So, as I progress and get more experience and confidence as well as broken in stones, I’m moving to some of my better knives while still avoiding the powdered steels… I decided to go at my Shun Yanagiba which has been hand, whet stone sharpened for probably 25 years. It’s a VG-10 steel and it has had a micro-bevel for a long time. When I did that, it was done to ease sharpening and make quick work of refining it back to what I thought was sharp. Now, it was phone book paper push-cutting sharp, but I wanted to restore the knife to its original geometry with a 16 deg primary bevel. What a F2c*ing pain in the A$$ that was! No kidding, I probably put 5-6 hours in on grinding away at 100 grit diamond to finally hit the apex. It literally took me 2 days with multiple breaks between grinding sessions so ( have no exact hour count). I tried to keep the pressure light in spite of cursing in multiple languages in my head as I ground away. I had the knife in the low angle adapter and of course was only grinding a single side. Occasionally, after a few hours of thinking I was close to the apex, I’d break out the 3k and lightly stoke the backside ( flat, non-ground) to break any burr. Of course, this was a mental exercise of futility and I hadn’t hit the apex. Finally, after what seemed like my 100,000’th look at the apex on the usb scope, I was really really really close and could smell the fine edge wanting to appear. Yet alas, I grind and grind, edge leading, edge trailing, scrubbing, cross cross to try and introduce “smaller areas that need to be broken off”. I’d flip the stone upside down to try and use as close to 100% of the surface area as possible. I’d swap out to the other 100, again, in efforts to use all 100 grit stone surface evenly, or as evenly as possible. Eventually I thought I had eliminated any or almost the entire micro bevel and moved to the 200 stones as I kissed the apex. For some clarification, I’d guess the initial micro bevel was at max 1 mm wide while the primary bevel is maybe 4 mm ( I didn’t actually measure…) There are 4 points to this note: 1. Careful when deciding to use a micro bevel. It’s really permanent unless you have the patience of Jobe and want to put in the effort required to restore the original geometry. I really should have gone to my Tormek to do that work, but I was interested in gaining WE experience. 2. Is VG 10 really that hard to deal with with diamonds? I had sharpened 2 other shun vg10 blades quite easily. A paring knife and the mate utility knife. 3. Could I possibly have worn out the 100 grit diamond stones in this endeavor? the stones don’t really seem worn out, they’re still making dust, but if a stone is expected to last 200-600 sharpening based on some bell curve of user skill/tactic and amount of steel removed, I’m certainly guessing these 100’s are, um, at least well worn in! 4. Lock that micro-adjust jamb nut tight and, realize that with enough steel removal your angle will change and you may want to adjust your angle slightly to stay on 16.00 deg. Late in my second day of grinding, I broke out the phone, hot Amazon, and ordered some 50/80 stones that I’ve already semi-broken in on my beater cheap steel survival knife. The initial 50 stokes per stone surface were really quite painful to listen to, but eventually that very course/agressive stone set seemed to settle in and with reasonable technique put a quite nice edge on some cheap presumably Chinese steel. I can’t imagine I’d ever hit a quality knife anywhere near the apex with the 50/80, but had I had it while re-profiling the Yanagiba, I probably would have used it in hopes of saving hours and a lot of frustration let alone 100g stone wear trying to restore the original geometry. So, how would you all go about restoring a VG10 Yanagiba to original geometry? Would you bother? Do you use microbevels with intentions to making maintenue sharpening easier and not even thinking about any desire to go back to the initial geometry? – edit was to use forum formatting bold vs. IPad text bold which does not actually bold the text… Cheers, Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah , and / or happy holidays

    Personally, I don’t use microbevels anymore – I really don’t see the point, though I could be wrong. I’ve never sharpened a Yanagiba, but I feel your pain. I had that problem reprofiling my chisels. I finally gave up and ordered some 50/80 stones. Man, did they save me a lot of time and wear & tear on my elbows and shoulders!

    But they leave some deep gouges so, I would stop before I got too close to the edge apex with the 50 grit stones. Then take the edges almost to the edge apex with the 80 grit stones. And then on to the edge apex and form burrs with the 100 grit stones, depending on the blade. For my nicer blades, I will take the 100 grit stones to very near the edge apex, and then use the 200 grit stones to reach the edge apex and form my first burrs.

    #57353
    Henry
    Participant
    • Topics: 4
    • Replies: 28

    Robert,

    I think j I still like microbevels as it makes sharpening or touching-up so much easier and for me, on some knives and tools (like my Marples chisels), it provides a very nice edge at least in my humble experience. AND, as I said, it makes sharpening so much faster,

    I do completely follow your concept of grinding with the lower grits to never touch the working edge as then we will have to just grind away all those deep grooves on the edge and as the initial post discussed, I think I have seen evidence of tear out or at a minimum just deep grooves that needed to be smoothed  to become as fine of an edge as possible.

    On an aside, I’ve now used the Shapton Glass WE stoned mentioned earlier in a few knives and although the slurry and mess created is a bit “messy”, the results and speed seem quite phenomenal. Ultimately, I did re-do the Yanihaba at 16.00 deg starting at 220 grit Shapton and worked up to 8K and must say the process was quite fast and did leave, what I thought, was a much cleaner edge. Frankly, we shall see how stone maintenance winds up. I can easily enough flatten them on a diamond flattening plate but am trying to use “her whole stone”, as much as possible and practical, to minimize wasted stone due to wasted stone removal in the flattening process.

    The  journey continues and  and some point I shall post a new thread about the journey in the WE learning process. For now, I’m spending time with my kids and family as well as continuing to hone my skills (pun intended).

    For now, I’ll post this pic of a few hours into 100 grit honing and still clearly not at the apex!

     

    Attachments:
    #57355
    Henry
    Participant
    • Topics: 4
    • Replies: 28

    Ps. It’s kind of fun. I’ve learned  to save the usb scope pix to a Dropbox director on my Laptop and can now grab from my phone and drop in here after saving to my camera roll. The journey indeed continues !

    #57356
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 7
    • Replies: 355

    Robert, I think j I still like microbevels as it makes sharpening or touching-up so much easier and for me, on some knives and tools (like my Marples chisels), it provides a very nice edge at least in my humble experience. AND, as I said, it makes sharpening so much faster, I do completely follow your concept of grinding with the lower grits to never touch the working edge as then we will have to just grind away all those deep grooves on the edge and as the initial post discussed, I think I have seen evidence of tear out or at a minimum just deep grooves that needed to be smoothed to become as fine of an edge as possible. On an aside, I’ve now used the Shapton Glass WE stoned mentioned earlier in a few knives and although the slurry and mess created is a bit “messy”, the results and speed seem quite phenomenal. Ultimately, I did re-do the Yanihaba at 16.00 deg starting at 220 grit Shapton and worked up to 8K and must say the process was quite fast and did leave, what I thought, was a much cleaner edge. Frankly, we shall see how stone maintenance winds up. I can easily enough flatten them on a diamond flattening plate but am trying to use “her whole stone”, as much as possible and practical, to minimize wasted stone due to wasted stone removal in the flattening process. The journey continues and and some point I shall post a new thread about the journey in the WE learning process. For now, I’m spending time with my kids and family as well as continuing to hone my skills (pun intended). For now, I’ll post this pic of a few hours into 100 grit honing and still clearly not at the apex!

    Probably every edge will look like it has tear-out if you magnify it enough. If I can’t detect it with my fingernail or see it with my lighted magna-visor, then I don’t worry about it.

    I also use the entire surface of my stones as much as possible as you do. You also have to remember to use a light touch with the diamond stones. I still catch myself occasionally using too much pressure.

    Marc is the Japanese steel expert around here. I have no experience with the steels. I’m sure that he will chime in when he gets a chance.

    #57357
    Henry
    Participant
    • Topics: 4
    • Replies: 28

    Yes I get the all stones and diamonds scratch! It’s the level f scratches that county, and your fingernail test is semi- akin to a “cut a pice of paper – phone book or copier – and if it cuts smooth, Irish hi good enough.

    yes Mark seems to have Japanese knife experience and I’ve learned a lot from reading his posts and blog. Looking forward to re-reading for the fourth time some of his stuff! And gaining experience!

    Best!

    #57358
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 67
    • Replies: 2629

    You also have to remember to use a light touch with the diamond stones. I still catch myself occasionally using too much pressure.

    I reserve the light pressure only rule for unbroken in stones.  When working with well broken in stones, I use pressure commensurate with my sharpening mediums for the jobs I’m doing, at the time.  If I’m scrubbing at the start of a reprofile I’ll use more applied pressure and as I get the steel removing as I’m wanting, I’ll then back off on the pressure.  Some sharpening jobs require that I use quite a bit of applied pressure.  Afterall, it is a tool and I use it as I need to, to get the job done.  I reserve the “light touch” for the lighter, finer grits when I’m into the polishing stages of my sharpening progressions.

    Henry,

    Based on my experiences with whetstones I prefer to lap my stones more frequently than less often.  If the whetstone’s ends aren’t hardly worn you won’t have to waste or give up much stone thickness if you level out or lap the stones with just lightly used, slightly bellied stone centers.  I believe the whetstones work better when kept as flat as you can.  I usually lap mine every knife or at most every other knife, depending on their wear.  Also cleanly lapped stones cut better than used whetstones.

    Here’s a good video on lapping technique:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVNFEAiMjzU

    Hint: Using longer guide rods with upper and lower stone stops allows you to use more of the full lengths of your sharpening mediums more efficiently and effectively.

     

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    #57359
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 7
    • Replies: 355

    I use pressure commensurate with my sharpening mediums for the jobs I’m doing, at the time. If I’m scrubbing at the start of a reprofile I’ll use more applied pressure and as I get the steel removing as I’m wanting, I’ll back off on the pressure. Some sharpening jobs require that I use quite a bit of applied pressure. Afterall, it is a tool and I use it as I need to. I reserve the “light tough” for the lighter, finer grits when I’m into the polishing stages of my sharpening progression. Hint: Using longer guide rods with upper and lower stone stops allows you to use more of the full lengths of your sharpening mediums more efficiently and effectively.

    I tend to use a little more pressure on up/down strokes, and on chisels. I agree with using the longer guide rods and stone stops.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by 000Robert.
    #57361
    Henry
    Participant
    • Topics: 4
    • Replies: 28

    Mark,

    Thanks.

    The Jende vid is good. It’s consistent with all other all good vids on lapping whetstones.

    And yes, you’re right about keeping the whetstones flat. Always. I follow your frequent process on my larger stones pretty religiously and thanks for the tip/reminder  to do the same in the WE.

    Nice hint on 1- use the longer rods. – check- done. And 2- use the upper and bottom stops … hmmmm… may need to treat myself to those soon.

    Are you still “preferring” the Shapton pro Kuromaka stones from EBay seller you recommended?

    I’m  assuming from multiple other threads of yours that you use those for most Japanese knives/steels, particularly the high hardness, powder “tec”, thin blade knives. Any other whetstones come up in your rotation fairly frequently and if so, what steels do you lean on them for and why?

    Oh yea, thanks for the tip on using the pressure “you feel appropriate” at various sharpening stages. I have to believe that diamonds really don’t need high pressure even when “roughing out” a bevel,  but it’s nice to hear from you that you may lean in a bit more heavily for rougher work while still getting more and more delicate for the polishing.
    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Peace!</p>

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Henry.
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