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Digital angle measurement

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  • #55383
    edgelord
    Participant
    • Topics: 1
    • Replies: 6

    Does a really good angle measurement device help that last bit?

    I have a new 130 (after a fair bit of naniwa stones freehand) and enjoy the greater precision it affords me. I have a Tiltbox2 from Lee Valley that lists “It has a range of 90° left or right and a resolution of 0.05° (accurate to 0.2°).” I’ve read some tips on measuring how to consistently measure the angle and I think I’m kind of at the limit of the measuring tool when I end up happy to be within +/-0.1 degree of my desired. I measure at each stone change (not each grit). I am wondering if a DXL360s would be more precise or if I’m good with the TB2? Is the DXL really 0.01 degrees accurate?

     

    j

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    #55387
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 6
    • Replies: 294

    Welcome to the Forum! I measure at each grit change myself. I use my Klein Tools 935DAG just because I like it. It says it has an accuracy at 0.2° as well. It has been working great. I just finished my 3rd Grade A military surplus M7 Bayonet a while ago. After I got the edges reprofiled with my 100 grit stone, I switched to the 200 grit and releveled to 28dps. I ran the sharpie down the edge and then did my up and down grinding with the 200 grit stones for a couple of passes. The 200 grit stones removed the sharpie marks perfectly all the way down to the tips. It seems to me that the 0.2° tolerance is plenty good enough. But there’s nothing wrong with more accuracy. I have not tried that DXL that you mentioned.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by 000Robert.
    #55389
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 64
    • Replies: 2486

    The Dxl360S works well for me.  I don’t know whether it’s better then your TB2.  It does have better specs then all the other cubes I’ve used before it.  It’s also is multiaxis.

    I check angles and microadjust with every grit…just my preference.

    I suggest for accuracy you always position your angle cube on the stones the same, everytime you use it.  Also place the stone against the knife edge the same way, positioned the same, every time you check the angle.  Keep everything consistent.

    Only zero out the angle cube once at the beginning of your sharpening session.  Sharpen only on a sturdy,  solid stationary table that doesn’t move or vibrate with floor movement, (like with older wood floors).

     

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #55391
    Toxophilus
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 12

    I gave away my other angle cubes and now only use the DXL360S; using it along with the math gleaned from this forum’s past postings to find true center (thank you tcmeyer) has helped me dial in my sharpening so I can achieve even bevels. I use the DXL360S only during my initial set up and then go through my sharpening progression.

    Below is a snapshot of my results on a Spyderco Shaman at 18° per side, I had posted the image below on another group to show the difference between factory bevels (Spyderco Stretch) and what can be done with the Wicked Edge…

     

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    #55393
    edgelord
    Participant
    • Topics: 1
    • Replies: 6

    … I suggest for accuracy you always position your angle cube on the stones the same, everytime you use it. Also place the stone against the knife edge the same way, positioned the same, every time you check the angle. Keep everything consistent. Only zero out the angle cube once at the beginning of your sharpening session…

    Nice to know I’m on the right track as I’ve narrowed it down to pretty much these steps. However the cube I use powers off after 1 minute or so and loses its zero. When I see high end Mitutoyo digital protractors with less advertised accuracy than the DXL360 I wonder about it.

    #55394
    edgelord
    Participant
    • Topics: 1
    • Replies: 6

    …using it along with the math gleaned from this forum’s past postings to find true center (thank you tcmeyer)

    Would you be able to direct me to this math? I dig the details.

    #55395
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 64
    • Replies: 2486

    Nice to know I’m on the right track as I’ve narrowed it down to pretty much these steps. However the cube I use powers off after 1 minute or so and loses its zero. When I see high end Mitutoyo digital protractors with less advertised accuracy than the DXL360 I wonder about it.

    All the cubes I have used time out also, and auto power off. They still keep the “zeroing” in the memory.  As long as you don’t zero the cube again it’ll continue to hold in it’s memory and continue to work with the last zero position.  Check your manual for that cube.  It should hold it’s zero when off.  If not, I’d look to use a model cube that does.

    My W.E. has sat in the same place and same position on the table, unused sometimes for weeks or months.  When I checked it’s position with my cube, just for kicks, it showed the same zero position, as when I had last zeroed it and used it.  Even still, I do usually start each sharpening session with zeroing my cube, first.

    Would you be able to direct me to this math? I dig the details.

    The WE130 is a self centering Gen 3 vise.  You should not need to make any calculated offsets to overcome clamping and/or centering issues.  The knife should clamp vertical and centered just as it’s placed, positioned and locked between the jaws.

    Only the standard vise models: WE GO, WE100 and WE120 by their design, with that two piece vise system, have an inherent blade lean while clamping.  For those standard vise systems the correction calculation is used to offset the clamping lean.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    #55396
    Toxophilus
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 12

    Sent you a pm; plus here’s the link to tcmeyer’s post regarding correcting for blade lean (which my Gen 3 still has…) https://knife.wickededgeusa.com/forums/topic/mounting-ffg-blades-in-a-we120-gen-1-vise/ 

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Toxophilus.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Toxophilus.
    #55401
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 64
    • Replies: 2486

    I want to make this point clear…we’re working with relative angles.  The bevel angles we apply to our knife edges are relative to the zeroed out angle cube where it’s positioned and placed on the W.E. base.  So keeping everything the same, consistent, doing it exactly the same way, time and time again, is what’s important.  Applying the same relative angle based off the reading on your digital cube, to both knife sides and continuing to maintain this same relative angle stone after stone throughout the entire sharpening  and polishing process is key.

    A large contributor to sharpening inconsistency is our finger hold position on the paddles and the pressure we apply.  How we hold the paddles and how heavy the pressure we use effects the position the stone work is applied to the bevel, that is the scratch patterns. If we keep moving our finger placement on the handles it’ll change where the stone scratches on the bevel.  If we press hard it’ll apply deeper heavier scratches.  Concentrate on what you’re doing with your hands.  Strive for consistency.   In time it’ll become second nature.

    Many of us work with magnified visual aids.  I prefer a USB microscope.  Through visual inspection of your applied bevels with time and experience you’ll be able to recognize the changes it makes in the appearance and position of the scratch pattern as you change pressure and finger positions.  You’ll learn to use this to your advantage.  You’ll also be able to recognize if your stone angle is off a little.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #55403
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 6
    • Replies: 294

    … I suggest for accuracy you always position your angle cube on the stones the same, everytime you use it. Also place the stone against the knife edge the same way, positioned the same, every time you check the angle. Keep everything consistent. Only zero out the angle cube once at the beginning of your sharpening session…

    Nice to know I’m on the right track as I’ve narrowed it down to pretty much these steps. However the cube I use powers off after 1 minute or so and loses its zero. When I see high end Mitutoyo digital protractors with less advertised accuracy than the DXL360 I wonder about it.

    My Klein Tools 935DAG doesn’t power off until 10 minutes of inactivity.

    #55406
    edgelord
    Participant
    • Topics: 1
    • Replies: 6

    You’ll also be able to recognize if your stone angle is off a little.

    While we are off on somewhat of a tangent here, I did want to pick your brain on this. I noticed something on my 3rd knife sharpened on my 130 (and the first to go over 1000 diamond stone) with my new ceramic stones. I have a tiny usb optical microscope (not USB) and noticed at the higher grits that there were two distinct patterns, bottom of secondary bevel, and at the top. If I am very consistent it goes away. It seems to be if I allow the slight play in the hole the guide rod goes in to pivot the stone a bit it gives a slight deviance in the angle. Am I crazy or is that correct. Now I use my little finger to keep slight pressure at the bottom to hold the stone along the same path – does that make sense? Plus I slowed down. A lot.

    I do think this pattern was there at the lower grits but it wasn’t so apparent and I didn’t notice. Now I know what to look for, and listen for it seems.

    j

    #55407
    edgelord
    Participant
    • Topics: 1
    • Replies: 6

    They still keep the “zeroing” in the memory…

    Thanks for this. I just checked and mine does keep zero.

    #55411
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 64
    • Replies: 2486

    I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “allow the slight play in the hole the guide rod goes in”?  Everything that’s intended to be tight should be used tight.  We don’t want to allow any play where it really shouldn’t be.  We want to hold and use our stones in a manner that’s keeping them stable and positioned as they slide up and down the guide rods while they are contacting the knife edge, consistently.

    Realize,  when we begin working with very accurate and precise digital cubes and inspecting with digital microscopes we are introducing and using a higher level of precision and inspection.  Therefore we can see any inconsistencies and we have the ability to make adjustments to correct for these.  We are in essence setting the bar higher and requiring our need to do and produce better quality results.

    That’s the trade off.  What you don’t or can’t see and what you can’t measure you don’t find fault with and you won’t want to fix it.  Precise measurements and precise quality results takes more time, more effort and more attention to details.  Whether it’s really worth it, I wonder??

    Many of my knives are hand forged and hand made.  They are hand sharpened with free hand held sharpening stones.  New, out-of-the-box most cut impressively.  They are sharpened with far less precision or accuracy then the results we can produce with the W. E.  Is it worth the extra effort we use?  Who knows.  I guess we just do it because we can.

    P.S. I too use the sounds the stones make as they cross the knife edge, as an indicator for the quality of my stone work.  The pitch changes slightly as I allow the stone’s position to falter.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by MarcH.
    #55413
    edgelord
    Participant
    • Topics: 1
    • Replies: 6

    I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “allow the slight play in the hole the guide rod goes in”? Everything that’s intended to be tight should be used tight. We don’t want to allow any play where it really shouldn’t be. We want to hold and use our stones in a manner that’s keeping them stable and positioned as they slide up and down the guide rods while they are contacting the knife edge, consistently…

    If I slide a stone onto the rod it isn’t a ‘Perfect’ fit, but rather the hole is ever so slightly larger than the rod. That slight enlargement seems to give it some back and forth. Sorry for the poor photos, but you can see the small gap depending on how I apply pressure to the stone – it has some play on the rod. Is that not normal? I had presumed that this play and my hand position / pressure was what gave me variation in the scratch marks. All my stones do this about equally.

     

    And yes, I know this discussion is going pretty far down the sharpening hole, ha ha. My hand sharpened knives were very sharp but no where near as consistent as what I see on the WE130. If I wanted a certain angle done by hand it would be a ‘pretty close’, I’m sure others could do better. It made me terrified to sharpen my Chris Reeve Umnumzaan to be honest.

     

    j

    Attachments:
    #55416
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 64
    • Replies: 2486

    Yes, the slightly oversized paddle holes are perfectly normal.  This is why I stress the importance of finger hold position and applied pressure.  These are within your control. Use them to maintain proper consistent stone-edge contact.  How you hold your paddles effects your scratch patterns and it’s position. Through repeated trial and error or experimentation with position and pressure, along with frequent visual inspection, you’ll correlate “cause and effect”.  That is what you do with your hands to effect your sharpened knife edge.  With time and experience you’ll learn what finger hold and hand pressure technique works best for you to produce the results you seek.

    I generally work the stones more slowly then quickly.  I use all my senses.  Sound and tactile feedback are key to monitoring my stone progress and results.

    Don’t get too caught up on exact specifications. Even though the precision of your WE130 now allows you to sharpen knives to this specificity.

    Consistency from one knife side to the other knife side and all down the length of the knife edge is what we see when we hold the knife and recognize it’s beauty and quality.  If the bevel is 15.00° or 14.47° we don’t see this difference.  We only see any glaring unevenness or inconsistencies.

    Bevel angles are not a magic number.  If your factory specified 15° bevel isn’t sharpened to exactly 15°, it doesn’t stop cutting!  The knife sharpened at a precisely measured 15° per side bevel doesn’t perform noticeable better then the 16° edge or worse then the 14° edge.  Although you should recognize the difference from 15° to 20° to 25°.

    More important then this is matching bevel angle to steel durability and hardness.  That’s a whole different subject for another time, place and discussion.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

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