Angles not wide / large enough?

Welcome to the W.E. Forum Ribstabsheart.

It sounds as though you’re putting in the effort and you have a good understanding of what you’re doing. You included a lot in your post. I’ll try to break it down to address each issue.

The W.E. is basically a bench vise that clamps and holds knives vertically allowing us to move the sharpening stones across the knife edge to sharpen it. As long as the knife is held stable and secure in the jaws, whether in-line, above or below the depth key pin holes it really doesn’t matter. These holes are a convenience and a positioning suggestion. Sometimes we need to position a knife above or below the holes. Whatever works for that particular knife to clamp it tight so it can be sharpened.

The depth key pin holes and the angle delineations inscribed on the square bar are simply guides. Using the combination of the two works well in most situations. Sometimes for larger, taller knives these pin holes and angle markings may not work for the knife as expected. The purpose of the depth key pin holes are to allow for easy repeatable positioning of knives. More importantly, as long as you can position your alignment guide in/or relative to the depth key holes, then the clamping positions can be recorded for future reference and use for touch-ups. It doesn’t matter if the knives are resting on the key pins, if you can get a repeatable position reference to record, that’s all we need.

The same thing holds true for guide rod angle positioning. As long as you can slide then position and lock the mini “L” brackets securely on the square bar to allow you to move the sharpening stones up and down across the knife edge, that’s all that matters.  At times you may even need to reverse the mini “L brackets so the pointed locking thumb screws tighten against the rear flat side of the square bar and not in the pre-spaced indents on the bar’s front side. We may need to do whatever it takes to use the W.E. as the tool it is for the knife and the sharpening situation at hand.

I’m curious what are you calling “the perfect angle”.  Is a “perfect angle” a knife sharpened well at the angle you chose to sharpen it to. Or is it when you have matched then removed all the sharpie marker ink when you are finding the existing angle for a knife’s first sharpening. Are you using the inscribed square bar angle delineations to determine your bevel angles? Or are you using a properly zeroed digital angle cube? Either way the bevel angle is a relative angle to how the knife is positioned and measured, with the angle determining method you are using.

For me, it’s more about edge keenness than edge angle. Keenness is how closely, tightly or precisely the two opposite side edge bevels meet and intersect at the apex. The keenness of the knife edge in conjunction with the bevel angles contributes to the knife’s sharpness, (i.e., cut ability and slice ability). Angle is more important to edge durability. The proper balance of these factors is the “perfect edge”. The hardness and tempering of the knife’s steel plays a role in this too but, that’s beyond the scope of the discussion here.

How did you come up with the 30° bevel angle? To be clear the angle delineations inscribed on the square bar correlate with a clamped knife with its edge positioned 5/8” above the top of the vise jaws, at the vise’s center. For any knife clamped and positioned differently the angle references become purely approximations. A properly zeroed digital angle cube can provide a truer bevel angle reading for any knives in any clamping positions.

Was the 30° you shared in your post an angle you chose to use or was this the approximate angle reading you had when you removed all but the narrow edge of the sharpie marker ink. Did you run out of square bar length so you could not adjust your angles out wider?

You were unhappy with the bevel heights you produced. Bevel height is determined by how much physical contact the sharpening stones make against the knife steel towards edge. In general, with most typical knife grind situations, the narrower bevel angles are seen with taller height bevels and the wider bevel angles are seen with shorter height bevels. The amount steel that is contacted against by the sharpening stones determines bevel height. When the sharpening stones are positioned nearly parallel to the knife steel the contact patch where the stones scratch and can remove steel is larger. When the stones are more angled and less parallel to the steel the contact patch where the stones scratch and remove steel is smaller.

It is really Irrelative to the bevel angles. Simply, more stone contact makes taller bevels and less stone contact makes shorter bevel angles. It just so happens that for most typical knives we use today, the way modern knives are ground, lower bevel angles will appear with taller height bevels and wider bevel angles will appear with shorter height bevels.

If the bevel height doesn’t seem right or doesn’t look right you can always hand-hold the sharpening stone or use a straight edge placed in full flat contact with the bevel portion you are wanting to match. Then with an angle cube you can read the angle of that flat ground area you are measuring. Realize that some knives have multiple facets to the side grinds down from the spine to the knife edge. The bevel making the apex is generally the only one we are sharpening. Only when we are re-profiling or thinning the blade we may re-grind the other knife side bevels that are above the knife edge.

Finally, I will say, it seems as though you have a good understanding of what is required to sharpen with your WE120. Sometimes knives are typical and fall right-in with the conveniences the sharpening system offers. Other knives are less typical and require more effort. Some require us to get creative and think outside the box in order to use our WEPS to sharpen these well. As long as you can clamp the knife securely and set your stones so they contact the apex you should be able to sharpen it. If you can create two smooth flat linear bevels that intersect tightly at the apex to make a tight line of intersection and a keen edge you should have a sharp knife. Sometimes you can do this at the bevel angle you want to use. Other times you may have to settle with what you can get.

With properly broken-in stones and good sharpening technique done with the necessary time, effort and attention to detail you will achieve better than a “good working edge”. You will get a scary, wicked sharp edge.

2 users thanked author for this post.

000Robert, David

The WE120 is your tool. Use it how you may. For situations with very wide angles I replaced the pointed thumb screws with flat ended nylon thumb screws (10-32). These nylon thumb screws will lock the mini “L” brackets in position simply compressing against the flat sides of the square bar. If you message me with your email address and mailing address I’ll gladly send you some of these nylon screws.  There are threaded holes in both the front and backside of the mini “L” brackets. using a pair of opposing nylon screws holds the brackets clamped tightly in place.  I doubt you’ll come across many knives with wider than 30° edge bevels.

Some of us work with a USB microscope to inspect our sharpening progress. With the scope, practice and experience you’ll easily see your burrs and edge bevels. You know exactly where your sharpening stones are contacting the knife, creating and shaping the bevels.  It won’t be hard or guess work like it is now. Properly developed, evenly formed burrs down the entire length and on both knife sides is key to sharpening knives well. Once you develop burrs to both sides you can be sure your bevels are meeting correctly, that is, you are apexing the knife edge. Following that first step, the rest is really refining and smoothing the knife edge to develop it’s best sharpness.

The most efficient clamping position where the stones can best contact the knife edge is called “the sweet spot”.  The W.E. is a fixed guided angle sharpening system. Most knives are not manufactured and sharpened with this type of system. Therefore, they may not match right up to the sweet spot. With the sweet spot position we are looking for a good approximation where the marker gets removed, pretty well, across the entire length of the knife edge. In most cases, don’t expect to find a clamping position where all of the marker gets removed. You may need to slide the tip back closer to the vise, or maybe farther away from the vise. Some knives are better positioned rotating them slightly, tip up and handle down, or the opposite, tip down and handle up. Don’t frustrate yourself. There is no perfect position, just the best close clamping position.

With each first time a knife gets sharpened with your WE it will then be profiled to match the fixed angle guided sharpening system of the WE. With subsequent sharpening your stones will contact and sharpen the bevels exactly the same, each time, if the clamping position and angles are set the same. Thus, the importance of recording your clamping position and sharpening data in a sharpening a log. With time and experience you’ll develop a simple system to clamp knives just looking at them. It’ll become intuitive.

To private message click the username for the person you are messaging anywhere you see it in the blue colored font. This will refer you to the W.E. messaging feature. Then click “private message” at the top menu. Also, at the upper right corner of the opening Forum page there is a round white number “0”. This will become blue and the number will change to reflect your message count.

For touch-ups begin with the highest grit that allows you to get the job done quickly and effectively. Generally for a situation without much damage 400 or even 600 grit will suffice. If you find you are needing to exert too much effort step back down to a more coarse grit. The 100 grit  does get a lot of wear for users first getting started. Once your knife collection has been profiled and sharpened, the 400 grit will get the most wear for starting touch-ups.

If you find yourself needing to rotate a knife to find the “sweet spot” it’s helpful, if you can, to let the knife spine rest on only the rear depth key pin as you rotate the tip up, or rest the spine only on the front pin if you should want to rotate the tip down. Using the single pin as a pivoting position gives you as good a reference point, just like if resting on both pins, for recording in your sharpening log.

Its better to start with a slightly wider bevel angle by 1/2° to 1° than you believe you need. Often while working the edge while sharpening it will work it’s way in resulting right where you originally wanted the angle to be. Whereas starting with too narrow an angle setting removes more steel than is necessary and enlarges the bevel heights and thins the edge. The removed steel can never be put back. For this reason I lean slightly on a conservative side to wider angles to start with.

Once you have set the edge the first sharpening it’s easy to perfectly match that bevel with touch-ups using the W.E.. Especially if you are are using some sort of lighted magnifying visual aid, like a usb scope.

The time and effort needed to re-profile a knife is directly related to the steel hardness and amount of bevel angle change being made. I believe it’s better to try to match the existing bevel angle sharpening a knife the first couple times with the W.E.. After you have a feel for how well the sharpened knife cuts you’ll have a basis for comparison if you should choose to then re-profile it narrower.

Reprofiling an existing edge to a wider bevel angle than the edge is now, applies a smaller appearing bevel on top of the original taller narrower bevel. This can work well to improve edge retention. This is also the same process used when applying a micro-bevel just the micro-bevel is done with fewer light stone strokes and often with a different grit.

1 user thanked author for this post.

NotSharpEnuff

Looks pretty good. I’d work the edge a little more. It looks like there’s gaps in the burr or small edge chips that should easily be removed with a little more effort.  If the chips are small and numerous across the edge I’d work at it until most of the shallower ones are sharpened out. If there’s only a few larger or deep chips across the entire length of the edge, they can be lived with for now. The will work out with subsequent sharpening sessions.

Your edge looks good in the posted photos. The bevel is straight, even and flat. The shoulder transition looks crisp accentuating the “V” bevel. I’d say you’re getting the process down and doing it right. Not knowing your scope I’d guess the view might be low power. The high power setting will let you really see the edge defects and details but the width of your field of view will be very narrow. High power on my scope lets me view between 1/4″ and 1/2″ of edge length.  So it’s takes some time and patience to slide across to viewing the entire edge, heel to tip for a full size chef’s knife.

Sharpening with your W.E. is an individual effort. The amount of time, effort and attention to detail you exercise sharpening your knives is up to you. For me it’s a hobby so my time is my own. I think nothing of spending a couple hours to touch-up a chef’s knife. I can take a full day or longer on a well used knife I am sharpening for myself for the first time. Sharpen your knives how you want. Don’t let anyone say you’re doing it wrong or you’re taking too long.  Your results will improve as you sharpen more. I learned the most going slowly correlating the results I saw using the usb scope with the stone work and sharpening strokes and technique I used.  Now I know just what I need to do to get the results I want.

Take your time and enjoy the journey.

1 user thanked author for this post.

NotSharpEnuff

The first visual aide I used was a lighted jewelers loupe. Like you, I quit using it when I realized just how close my face was to the sharpened knife edge. Now I use this usb handheld scope with a laptop:

I work start to finish at the same set angle. I use my beginning, coarse grit stone until every scratch I want removed is out. Only then will I move up to my next finer grit. I use each successively finer grit till I see the results I like before moving onto the next finer grit. A good rule of thumb is use each finer grit in your sharpening progress until all the scratches laid down with the previous grit are obliterated with the scratch pattern of the current grit. Using each successive grit with a different slant direction to your strokes helps to distinguish the earlier strokes. Wider, deeper scratch patterns that remain from the previous grit stone are easy to distinguish with a microscope with some experience.  When you eventually reach your finest grits you’re then looking to smooth and polish the bevels. This is seen with improved reflectivity.

Changing angle settings during sharpening is only something you’ll do if you are trying to change the edge configuration. Using successive narrower bevel angles, such as incremental 1/2° lower angles when blended across the bevel height creates a convexed edge. A single wider bevel angle, usually 2° less applied to the apex of your first bevel is a micro-bevel. This is generally done with a few alternating side stone strokes.  There are various reasons for applying a micro-bevels and convex edges which are more advance techniques and a subject for later discussions.

1 user thanked author for this post.

NotSharpEnuff

I see from your photo your working with a WE100, not a WE120. Both models the WE100 & WE120 utilize the same “standard” style vise. The standard vise is a two-piece vise with the left side fixed while the right side floats and is attached to the fixed side by the upper screw screw. The upper screw tightens or closes the vise on the knife. Then the lower screw, the “jacking” screw when tightened, spreads the lower portion of the gap wider as this motion closes the upper jaw space down and tightens the hold on the knife.

Due to the physics and mechanics of the standard clamping system the left side of the clamped, edge up, knife is pressed against the flat vertical inside of the vise’s fixed left side. Because of the narrow triangular shape of a typical knife this clamping action slightly tilts,  leans or cants the knife and the edge to the left. So, what you have observed is the correct observation. The knife edge may have uneven bevel angles. Many knives when manufactured are hand sharpened. So uneven bevels are common. In addition to that, the knife is leaning left in the jaws.

The WE100, your model, only has gross angle adjustments. This is accomplished with the “L” bracket positions. The WE120 system additionally has the micro-angle adjustment feature. With the nylon thumb screws that are on the way you can use them in place of the pointed “L” bracket locking thumb screws. With two nylon screws used in conjunction, both front and back, you can lock the “L” brackets any place you need to position it along the square bar. Then using the angle cube you’ll be able to position the “L” brackets more precisely on the bevel angles you want to use on your knife edges. That’s the workaround you’ll have next week.. When you’re ready W.E. offers several optional upgrade kits to convert your basic WE100 into a better equipped, easier to use model. The single cam lever vise clamping system utilized in the better optioned WE130 and Gen 3 Pro models clamps and holds knife blades vertically. These models also come standard with clamping tension adjusters and micro-angle adjusters.

For now, you can determine the left blade lean to compensate for it. In general the lean is from 1° to 3°. This lean explains just what you’re observing. With the nylon thumb screws you’ll be able to adjust each side bevel angle separately using your angle cube to compensate for unequal bevels and the standard vise blade lean, also.

Later tonight or tomorrow I will provide you links to forum posts and videos that will explain the steps to determining and compensating for this normal standard vise clamping lean. For uneven bevels that’s a judgment call you’ll make to decide what bevel angel best matches your existing edges and what changes meets your needs. Be patient while I put this information together.