Kyle Kaplan
@kylekaplan
4 years agoForum Replies Created
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I’m really happy with all the discussion about this!
When I decided what kind of a sharpening service I wanted to provide, I took a look at the market for sharpening services and tried to figure out how I could best position one that would require the least amount of startup cash and least amount of marketing to become successful. I landed on a local sharpening service that focuses on household cutlery for normal people who like to cook sometimes. I strongly believe that’s the largest market segment with the largest income potential – everyone has kitchen knives. The next piece of the puzzle was coming up with a quality / price formula that would be acceptable to my customer base. Most people don’t own high-end cutlery, so I had to set my pricing in such a way that normal people would consider it reasonable. I looked around my city and identified who my competition was and found out what they were charging. As these businesses had already set the price expectation, I priced my sharpening service similarly to what they were charging.
With my market identified and my pricing decided, I then had to figure out how to make my service profitable at the pricing I would be charging. This is how I decided I would match the current edge angle that I find on knives, and finish them all with a 1000 grit diamond stone. Using this technique I could sharpen most knives in about 4 minutes. To address tcmeyer’s point about edge geometry and not wanting to give customers knives back to them with a 27 degree edge angle: I’ve found that people are not only happy with the results I provide, but they’re so excited about it that they go tell other people about it. (You can see my testimonials here: https://www.nextdayknife.com/testimonials)
I know that if I took the time to reprofile the edge by 5 degrees or so, it’s quite likely the vast majority of my customers wouldn’t recognize the difference. So, why offer that service and have to increase my pricing to account for the extra time to remain profitable, and therefor price myself out of the market? It doesn’t make sense for the market I’m in, so I simply match the current bevel angle. Also, it just so happened that the knives in the video had wider sharpening angles, but many of the knives I sharpen have lower angles. The same logic applies to the grit level I choose go up to. I could go to 1500, 2200, 3000, stropping, etc., but I believe my point of diminishing returns, for these customers, is at 1000 grit. Adding 60-90 seconds to my sharpening job isn’t a big deal when I have a few knives to work on. But, when I’m sharpening a lot of knives that extra time would add up quickly. My best day this past year was 109 knives in a 6 hour period sitting outside a hardware store that’s near my house. It was exhausting. An extra 60 seconds per knife would have been nearly two extra hours of sharpening time. I know some of my customers would have chosen to not wait and I would have lost business if I took longer on each knife.
Regarding MarcH’s previous comment about losing profitability by offering delivery service, he’s absolutely right that I am giving away some profits by offering the delivery service compared to bringing a sharpening table and sharpener with me and sharpening at people’s houses. I actually do exactly that when my customers live farther away. But, the primary reason I don’t do that most of the time is because sharpening knives at people’s homes keeps me away from my home. I’m already gone 8.5 hours a day during the week for my day job. If I sharpened knives at people’s houses I could easily add a couple hours to the time I’m away from home, which doesn’t work for me. So, I run a pickup and delivery route on my way home, which usually takes about 30-60 minutes, and then I take the knives home where I can sharpen them in my leisure time. I can sharpen knives, get up and make dinner, take my dogs for a walk, and then sharpen some more knives. It’s just a more relaxed lifestyle, which I’m happy to sacrifice 30-60 minutes of driving time to achieve. I do set up a table and sharpening knives in front of a local hardware store sometimes on Saturdays, and that works out nicely.
So, if my objective is speed and I’m not trying to achieve perfect results, why bother using precision sharpening equipment? There are many reasons. The primary reasons I choose to use Wicked Edge are as follows:
- Material removal. The Wicked Edge holds the angle perfectly so each pass with my stone is at the exact same angle as my previous stroke. I couldn’t accomplish this with electric sharpening equipment like a belt sander without a great deal of practice and I fear I would remove too much material from my customers knives.
- Adjustability. With half a degree increments on the main adjustment on my Gen 3, or even 1 degree adjustments on other Wicked Edge sharpener models, I can get super close to matching the current edge angle on knives. If I’m off by a fraction of a degree it really doesn’t bother me and that’s because it won’t bother my customers, which is why I don’t use a digital angle gauge, magnification, or micro adjustment. Remember, I’m sharpening regular kitchen knives for regular people. I don’t need to offer that level of precision, and if I did, my customers surly wouldn’t pay for it so my business would inevitably not survive.
- If and when I need it, I do have the ability to sharpen with incredible precision. A scenario that a customer approaches me with a super high-end knife and wants a very precision sharpening job is rare for me (maybe once a year) but I like to be able to handle that if and when it comes up.
- Sharpness results. The level of sharpness I can achieve on a Wicked Edge, even at wider sharpening angles with a 1000 grit finish, is lightyears above what the other sharpening services in town are offering to their customers. My rule about sharpness is this: If I consider it sharp and would use it on my knives, it’s sharp enough for my customers. The technique I use for my own kitchen knives and pocket knives is the exact same as I use for my customers knives. My two favorite EDC knives are a ZT0560 and a Spartan PALLAS. The factory grind on the PALLAS is 27 DPS (measured with angle gauge and used magnification to be sure) and my ZT is at 24 DPS. I have not and will not reprofile them. To me, the factory edge angles are good enough and what’s more important to me than increasing the sharpness is material removal. I simply hate to remove material from my knives.
To Brewbear’s point; if it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing right. That’s why I use a Wicked Edge. It can create the sharpest result in the least amount of time with the least amount of material removal. There isn’t a sharpening system out there that scores equally as high as the Wicked Edge in all three categories. As MarcH said: Good, fast, cheap – pick two. Using the Wicked Edge in the manor in which I choose to use it allows me to accomplish all three, at least compared to what other sharpening services are offering in my city and as perceived by my customers. It’s all relative. Here, in this community on this forum, with all the experts and the people pushing the edge of the envelope to achieve the perfect edge, I do fall into the category that MarcH described as “fast and cheap, but not very good.” But to my customers in Santa Fe, my service is excellent, my results are phenomenal, and my pricing is affordable. Am I offering the same sharpening service that Josh at Razor Edge Knifes is offering? Absolutely not. We’re in different businesses. I’m happy where I am, and my customers are happy too.
P.S. to just to address a couple other comments:
The camera angle was weird in the video so it made it look like my stroke was more horizontal. I use an up and out stroke (edge trailing) and the bottom of the stone comes off the tip of the blade.
I do inspect the knives before I start sharpening. If I notice any chips or dings I make a mental note of it and will work to remove them when I’m sharpening. If the chips are deep or if I find a broken tip, I contact my customer to find out if he would like me to fix them for an extra fee which I assess on a case-by-case basis depending on the severity of the problem with the knife.
Ok that’s it for now.
Cheers,
Kyle
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Hey guys,
As promised, here’s a link to the video I made earlier today about how I sharpen knives. It’s a long video, but I talk about the whole process, sharpen 4 knives, and then I talk about how/why I price my sharpening service. Cheers.
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Hi Rodger,
I’d be happy to share. I think the easiest way for me to show my techniques would be to shoot a video and upload it to YouTube. I’m picking up about 20 knives from customers this afternoon and I’ve never sharpened for these customers before, so it’s a great opportunity to show my process from start to finish. I’ll post the link to the video in this thread as soon as the video is uploaded.
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000Robert,
Yes, I’ve timed myself on many occasions. It takes me about 10 seconds to mount the knife in the sharpener, another 10-20 seconds to do the marker test to determine the sharpening angle, about 1-2 minutes to draw a burr from each side of the knife with my 100 grit stone, and then about 20 seconds to make 20 passes with each of the 200, 400, 600, 800, and 1000 grit diamond stones on each side of the blade. And finally, about 10-15 seconds to wipe the blade clean and remove it from the sharpener.
The knives I usually sharpen for my customers are kitchen knives. The highest quality knives I see frequently are Shun, Henkel, and Wusthof. They’re made from decent steel, but not like the super steels found in a lot of higher-end pocket knives and fixed blades, so it really doesn’t take too long to sharpen them, especially because I’m matching the current edge angles and not doing any reprofiling. If the knife has a bad chip or a broken tip, it does take me a bit longer and I will charge my customers extra for making those repairs on a case-by-case basis.
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Hi Kenneth,
Sharpening knives to earn extra cash is a great idea! I have a small, part-time sharpening service in Santa Fe NM and I charge $8.00 per knife or $7.00 per knife when the customer gives me 5 or more knives to sharpen at a time. I don’t do any reprofiling on the knives I sharpen for my customers. I simply match the current angle on their knives by using the marker method, draw a burr with my 100 grit stone, and then progress up through my diamond stones and finish with 1000 grit. All my customers are very pleased with the 1000 grit finish, and using this technique my sharpening time is usually less than 4 minutes per knife. I use a Generation 3 Pro to do most of my sharpening, and I also have Wicked Edge GO which I keep in my car so I can sharpen when I’m out and about.
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Hey everyone,
Thank you for your responses! We’re learning a lot and will post the results when we wrap up this project.
Cheers,
-Kyle
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Sorry about that. It’s been fixed.
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Marc, the product renderings/photos aren’t quite ready yet. We’ll list the upgrades as soon as the renderings are done. Should be mid next week.
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Hey Organic,
The Chosera Waterstones have been discontinued. The diamond lapping films are a really great alternative.
The Chisel Attachment is being redesigned and will be available again in a few weeks.
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OK, I sharpened and tested 3 razor blades. One with 5 Micron Aluminum Oxide, one with 6 Micron Diamond Lapping Film, and one with a 5 Micron Leather Strop. First I sharpened each of them with 50 strokes per side with each 800, 1000, and 1500 grit diamond stones so they would all be equal from the start. I measured the sharpness of each razor blade in our sharpness testing machine. It measures how many grams of force it takes to cut through a medium; the lower the number, the sharper the edge. I took four measurements for each test. Here’s are the results:
5 Micron Aluminum Oxide Film
Initial sharpness of razor after 1500 grit stone: 372, 298, 407, 381 grams
Sharpness after 50 strokes per side with 5 micron aluminum oxide film: 315, 307, 317, 381 grams (315.25 avg)
Average sharpness increase: 49.5 less grams of force needed to cut medium
6 Micron Diamond Lapping Film
Initial sharpness of razor after 1500 grit stone: 390, 357, 369, 362 grams
Sharpness after 50 strokes per side with 6 micron diamond film: 282, 307, 286, 289 grams (291 avg)
Average sharpness increase: 78.5 less grams of force needed to cut medium
Leather Strop with 5 Micron Diamond Paste
Initial sharpness of razor after 1500 grit stone: 330, 337, 332, 369 grams
Sharpness after 50 strokes per side with 5 micron leather strop: 285, 324, 293, 277 (294.75 avg)
Average sharpness increase: 47.25 less grams of force needed to cut medium
In terms of overall sharpness they were very similar, but the 6 Micron Diamond Lapping Film had the best increase in sharpness. Personally I think the finish on the 6 micron diamond film was the best, but the 5 micron aluminum oxide wasn’t far behind. The leather was very milky looking in comparison. These photos were taken with a 60x magnification loupe that attaches to a phone. (hopefully I can get Clay involved and use his microscope next week) From what I can tell the edges sharpened by the films have more defined scratch marks, and the leather’s edge is more blurry, indicating it is burnishing and the films are not. We’ll know for sure when we see them under the microscope.
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Hey guys, we just released our Aluminum Oxide Lapping Films earlier this week. I got to play around with them a couple weeks ago and I found the results to be very similar to the Diamond Lapping Film. The big difference was the time it took. The Aluminum Oxide Films took about 1.5-1.75 times longer to achieve the same results as the diamond. I didn’t notice a burnishing effect like what strops do, but maybe that’s because in my mind I was comparing them to the diamond films, not strops, and I hadn’t considered a burnishing effect at all. I’ll do a test to compare the 5 micron Aluminum Oxide, 6 Micron Diamond, and the 5 Micron leather strops, and let you know what I find.
