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Question about video tutorials: using 20 degrees for 19 degree profiled blade

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  • #56351
    Jason
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 4

    Hi,

    I have a newby question I’ve been watching all the Wicked Edge YouTube videos from Clay in preparation for the arrival of my WE 130 this weekend. In his demo he finds that the knife is profiled with a 19 degree edge, and then recommends setting the angle to 20 degrees to ensure he gets a good burr. I get that the slightly larger angle makes sure the edges intersect, but I’m wondering what the implication is. If you used 20 degrees on that knife all the time wouldn’t it eventually be reprofiled to 20 degrees? Or would he occasionally use 19 with a lower grit to keep it at 19? Is what he’s really doing making a V-Grind vs. a Flat Grind (where the bulk of the edge is at 19, but there is a 20 degree micro bevel at the tip)?

    #56352
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 64
    • Replies: 2487

    Jason, maybe if you could post the link to that particular video your relating to it could help the forum to understand the context and allow us to better address your question.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    #56353
    Jason
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 4

    Sorry, whole video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8qY1xr9F6c&list=PLRm8x9sCbpw2T_8bhi3emTF8HMgveEj3Q&index=4

     

    He also has the video broken into clips. in this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kHhZPv4p_M&list=PLRm8x9sCbpw2T_8bhi3emTF8HMgveEj3Q&index=6

    About 1:25 in, he talks about the bevel being 19 degrees, so he recommends setting the stones to 20 degrees to ensure he gets a burr.

     

    #56354
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 64
    • Replies: 2487

    Jason, first I’ll tell you that videos, in general, are helpful.  They give you a good starters knowledge.  They are no substitute for on-hand experience.

    Don’t make too much out of what Clay did.  He’s simply suggesting to new users, in this introductory video, that if you matched the bevels at 19° with the marker, if you set the sharpening angle out one degree wider you will be sure that you’ll draw a burr on both sides of the knife.  The burr is the physical manifestation or indicator that your sharpening strokes applied to the bevels are meeting at the apex of the knife edge.

    This step, the intersection of each individual side’s bevel together to form the apex is the key step to producing a sharp knife.  He’s making this suggestion to insure success for the knew users.  1° is enough of an angle difference to miss apexing the edge and drawing a burr on both sides.  This is a 1° insurance policy for new user success.  He’s trying to assure new users they are guaranteed success.  That they will be apexing the knife edge and drawing a burr.

    The first (coarsest) stone you use sets the angles you’re sharpening the bevels to, that is the edge profiles.  Each subsequent finer grit stone refines the knife edge.  The level of precision you apply to the edge refinement determines how sharp the knife will be.

    I want to make sure you realize that the inscribed angle delineations on the square or angle bar are simply a guide or an indicator that your bevel angle is around 19° or 20°.  The sharpeners are machined with these angle delineations calibrated against a knife edge 5/8″ above the jawline.  Most of us use the demarcations simply as an angle indicator and we determine the actual relative bevel angles using a properly zeroed digital angle cube.

    Also the difference 19° or 20° makes to the edge performance is mostly undiscernible.   More important then this relative bevel angle is the quality of the stone work.  Sharpening success requires an appropriate amount of time, effort and attention to detail.  No matter what the edge profile is.

    There is a good 8 to 10 knives worth of sharpening wear needed with each sharpening stone to insure they are well broken-in.  This coincidentally is about the same amount of time and sharpening experience needed to start to get an idea what it’s all about.  Learn how to sharpen while practicing on beater knives.  Save your good knives for later when your stones are broken in and you have a beginner’s idea of what you’re doing.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #56355
    Jason
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 4

    Thanks Marc. That’s sort of what I suspected, a training aid but not necessarily a best practice on an ongoing basis.  My WE is supposed to arrive tomorrow, and I have a few beaters standing bye. I’ve read the diamond stones do need a break-in period, I’m assuming the
    Shapton Pro Kuromaku Stones do not? (although I was planning on learning/practicing with the diamonds for a while before progressing to the stones and good blades).

    Also I saw you mention you didn’t love the angle square Wixey and prefer the DXL360S. Is that mostly just due to accuracy?

    #56356
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 64
    • Replies: 2487

    Actually for cubes in that price point, I did like the Wixey cube the best of all the other cubes I used.  It locks in quickly and allows successive readings to be done quickly in order to do a double or triple check that the angle is where you want it.  Where as the other similarly priced cubes, (like AccuRemote and Igaging) roll a lot on the readings and seldom settle in or lock on.  Another minor downside of the Wixey is it’s only magnetic on the bottom side so when you use it on a diamond stone you have to determine the angle reading by adding or subtracting it from 90º.

    The precision and accuracy of the Wixey was everything I needed for the first couple of years sharpening.  I started with the Pro Pack 2 with the standard vise set-up.  This vise lacked the ease of use and simple precision allowed with the newer Gen 3 style vise setups.  I don’t know that I would appreciate the improved precision of the better cube and know how to make good use of it if I hadn’t learned how to sharpen well using the older more manual models I started with.

    The Wixey does lack the precision, the resolution and the accuracy afforded by the DXL360S.  But, the DXL360S is much slower to work with, while waiting for it to settle down.  It’s super sensitive where even the A/C or ceiling fan blowing on it can change the angles.  I suggest you wait till you have the sharpening knowledge and experience and have developed a good understanding of knife sharpening practices with the W.E. before you try to use the DXL360S.  You’re working with 0.1’s of a degree with the Wixey VS 0.01’s of a degree with the DXL360s.  It takes a lot of practice and experience to utilize that precision and accuracy,  well.

    You wouldn’t want to learn how to drive on a Lamborghini?  Take your time and give it time.  Enjoy the journey.  You’ll be a better W.E. sharpener for it.

    Lastly, I’ve found brand new whetstones do have a kind of kiln residue or something on them.  I like to lap the new stones lightly to remove the coating and insure they are level and flat and that they will cut as I expect them to.  Other then that they do not need to be broken in.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #56359
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 6
    • Replies: 294

    I love my Klein Tools 935DAG. Works great!

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #56360
    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 123
    • Replies: 2936

    @Jason – MarcH is exactly right. That video (I’m surprised you found it) was made for our brand ambassadors last summer to help them get results quickly. It’s sort of a short cut to get around the work that is often required to make the bevel just right at the angle your marker indicates; by increasing the angle by 1 degree per side from what the marker showed, you can be very confident in reaching the apex quickly.

    -Clay

    4 users thanked author for this post.
    #56361
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 64
    • Replies: 2487

    Jason, I neglected to mention one thing that’s probably the most important aspect of very sharp results with the Wicked Edge System.  This is consistency.  Not the accuracy of your angles.  Not the precision of your angles.  Just that each stone you use in your grit progressions follow the first coarsest grit stone used the same way, in the same place right over the top of the previous grit’s scratch patterns.  Each grit done over and over again, the same way, consistently.

    If you do good consistent stone work in the same manner at the same place, again and again, your knife will be very sharp when it’s done for the right amount time with enough effort extended while paying proper attention to details.  This is irrelative to the actual angles you are using.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    3 users thanked author for this post.
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