Using the Variable Thickness Stone Adapters

[tcmeyer]

Gus:

Check your personal message box. I need your e-mail address.

Tom

[Gustav Highstein]

Tom-
Thanks for the last message. Since for mysterious reasons even my emails don’t go through, I send you another personal message. Sorry to clutter up this link!
Thanks for understanding!
Gus

[tcmeyer]

Hey Gus! Last night I was trying to solve an e-mail problem and found your two messages in my “Junk Mail” folder. I wonder why that would happen?

[Zamfir]

Wish I would have read this a while ago! LOL. I love the method used on the first post. Takes all the slop out of the adjustments. LIKES IT!!

[Marc H]

Back to the original post: Is there more then one shape or Model VTSA made? I have the PPII and my VTSA is at a different height than my plates. When I pivot the Diamond plate so to get maximum overlap of Diamond plate surface held flat against the VTSA the Diamond plate’s long top edge is between 0 degrees and 4 degrees relative to the mounting base but the VTSA’s long top edge is fixed at approximately 20 degrees.

When I pivot the mounted Diamond plate to make the long top edge parallel to the long top edge of the VTSA and at the same roughly 20 degree angle they only overlap by approximately 3/8″.

The Diamond plate is above the VTSA and barley overlapping when pivoted and held long bottom edge parallel to long top edge of the VTSA and at the same angle relative to the mounting base. Are the plates or stones and the VTSA supposed to overlap, superimposed, and lay flat against one another while the top long edges are parallel?

From the pictures in the original post it appears they are but it’s hard to tell.

Thanks

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Marc
(MarcH's Rack-Its)

[Zamfir]

I had wondered the same thing. Maybe they were designed for the older arms? OR..there is a method or reason to have them shaped this way and angled this way that I do not understand just yet. Regardless, they work for the PP2, but it seems they could work even better if they aligned up more? Or maybe they were designed for a happy medium so they work on both style of arms. Having a small business myself, I understand how important it is to minimize “options” and variations. If you can get one to work for both it is much better from a business standpoint.

In your second picture it looks like the height difference is about the same as the riser block that gets added to the vise for the PP2 arms eh?

[Peter Zimmer]

Hmmm. I was just about to order a pair, but this problem with the unmatched angles between the arms and the VTSA is giving me second thoughts.

[wickededge]

Somehow I missed this post the other day. The VSTAs are designed to work with either set of pivots, basic or pro. They don’t need to align perfectly, all you need is a couple of inches of stone against the plate to get them flat. Looking at HoodMa1’s top picture, the right technique would be to loosen the collar, slide the stone over to mate with the plate and then pinch the stone to the plate with thumb and fingers right around the first finger groove after the grit numbers on the paddles. If you do that, you’ll have plenty of contact from stone to plate and then you can tighten the collar once you have it flush.

-Clay

[tcmeyer]

Since this thread was started, I’ve added one little step to my method.

I noticed early on that if you carefully set the angle of the VSTA as described, the resulting angle you get with subsequent stones seemed to be about 0.1 degree different. I couldn’t feel anything in the stones or the rods, so I tried adding pressure against the ball joint. In other words, I pinch the stone against the VSTA, but then I push both of them against the rod-end ball joint while I tighten the VSTA collar into place. Seem to help. I think there’s some degree of error that occurs as you tighten the collar screw. This pushes it to one side.

[Zamfir]

Since this thread was started, I’ve added one little step to my method.

I noticed early on that if you carefully set the angle of the VSTA as described, the resulting angle you get with subsequent stones seemed to be about 0.1 degree different. I couldn’t feel anything in the stones or the rods, so I tried adding pressure against the ball joint. In other words, I pinch the stone against the VSTA, but then I push both of them against the rod-end ball joint while I tighten the VSTA collar into place. Seem to help. I think there’s some degree of error that occurs as you tighten the collar screw. This pushes it to one side.

Agreed! The Vista has to move and the Vista will also self level itself as you tighten it. As long as you are holding the stone tight against the vista and then push like you said while you tighten that sets the Vistas right to start with.

Where I was having problems is when I moved on to another set of stones I did not have a method to (and I did not think about) the ball joint movement.
What I love about your method is you first angle it and put pressure on the stone at the top and then adjust with the pressure so it is very repeatable. Looking forward to trying that method on my next mirror job and having the usb microscope handy.

[Marc H]

Somehow I missed this post the other day. The VSTAs are designed to work with either set of pivots, basic or pro. They don’t need to align perfectly, all you need is a couple of inches of stone against the plate to get them flat. Looking at HoodMa1’s top picture, the right technique would be to loosen the collar, slide the stone over to mate with the plate and then pinch the stone to the plate with thumb and fingers right around the first finger groove after the grit numbers on the paddles. If you do that, you’ll have plenty of contact from stone to plate and then you can tighten the collar once you have it flush.

Clay could you possible post a picture. I have been able to get the VSTA tight and flat against the first stone that I set the sharpening angle with before I tighten the collar. Then I have been subsequently able to use tcmeyer’s method to set up the second stone in the progression. What I find after checking the subsequent stone’s angle with the angle cube is they can be fine adjusted closer to my desired setting sharpening angle with the angle cube than just by using the VSTA. I’ve used it several times now and I get better results just using the angle cube. Even though the cube has it’s problems with accuracy and repeatability. I think if I was using more thickness variable stones such as chosera’s or shapton’s it may be more repeatable for me with the VSTA.

Marc
(MarcH's Rack-Its)

[tcmeyer]

Hodma:

Read my post just a little ways back in this thread. I think I may have solved the problem.

But one shouldn’t get too tied up in what your target angle might be. Yes, with the angle cube we can set the arms to within 0.1 deg of what you desire. And maybe the VSTAs might miss that by a tenth or so. Don’t drive yourself nuts over it. If the VSTA setting puts you at 19.9 degrees, who’s gonna know the difference once the blade is sharp and out of the vise?

Even if one of us OCD types clamps your knife up in our WEPS and runs a Sharpie test on it, do you think he’ll come to the conclusion that the bevel is off by a tenth and that you screwed up? Heck, he’ll be impressed by your ability to put the bevel there in the first place. How does he know you weren’t shooting for 19.9?

[Marc H]

Hodma:

Read my post just a little ways back in this thread. I think I may have solved the problem.

But one shouldn’t get too tied up in what your target angle might be. Yes, with the angle cube we can set the arms to within 0.1 deg of what you desire. And maybe the VSTAs might miss that by a tenth or so. Don’t drive yourself nuts over it. If the VSTA setting puts you at 19.9 degrees, who’s gonna know the difference once the blade is sharp and out of the vise?

Even if one of us OCD types clamps your knife up in our WEPS and runs a Sharpie test on it, do you think he’ll come to the conclusion that the bevel is off by a tenth and that you screwed up? Heck, he’ll be impressed by your ability to put the bevel there in the first place. How does he know you weren’t shooting for 19.9?

Thank you for your reply. Me an OCD type, I highly resemble that statement! Thanks for your help.
I don’t post here to whine or complain. I hope my posts don’t come across that way. I post to share my experiences and confusion looking for feedback and correction to improve my technique. Tcmeyer. believe me I read and reread and studied your posts and everyone else’s input. I have learned a tremendous amount from this forum and repeated practice with the WE. My edges show me that. It’s remarkable how sharp they are in the six months that I have used the WE. But the better they get, then the more I want to learn and the better I want to sharpen.

tcmeyer I sent you a private message. Thanks again.

Marc

Marc
(MarcH's Rack-Its)

[wickededge]

Hey Mark,

I agree w/ Tom about the variation of .1 degree; The angle cubes have at least that much variance in their readings. Even if the cubes could be that accurate consistently, the difference of a 1/10th of a degree is so small as to be basically irrelevant – you won’t even see any faceting of the bevel at high magnification with that small a change. Additionally, there are small amounts of play between the stones and the rods and within the ball joint that could also throw off your readings.

–Clay

-Clay

[phillyjudge]

This is a spectacular discussion.

I have VTSAs that I purchased a couple months ago, using the Gen 3 vise with the guide bar flipped around so the screws of the rods and VTSA tighten into a smooth surface.

My frustration starts when snugging up the VTSA to the plate (keeping in mind the time it took to get  the plate at the angle I want)….when I snug up the VTSA, it pushes the plate away by virtue of the VTSA pushing outward as it is tightened. It then throws off the angle of the first plate!

My technique for subsequent plates is to loosen the entire collar and not fiddle with the micro adjusts, as the collar is infinitely adjustable due to I my guide bar  being flipped around….am I missing something with that method?

I’m wondering if I should just angle cube everything and skip the error the VTSA seems to be introducing…..? Help sought.

[Author]

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