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Tamahagane Nakiri

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  • #24282
    Steven N. Bolin
    Participant
    • Topics: 47
    • Replies: 456

    I ran across this 3-ply stainless steel veggie knife online and saw something that intrigued me – the line where the last layer of stainless ends and the VG5 core begins.

    So, my questions are:
    1) Would you thin behind this lamenation line like you would if there was an actual shinogi line on a clad knife?
    and/or…
    2) Would you only use this lamination line as reference when sharpening and burr formation?
    3) Is this actually considered the shinogi line?
    or possibly even…
    4) Steven, just hit the apex with the WE and shut up because these are stupid questions?

    Thanks guys!

    ~Steven

    #24287
    Aaron kimpton
    Participant
    • Topics: 8
    • Replies: 155

    Not stupid questions, but I would hit the apex till it needed to be thinned, rinse repeat until there was a problem. I think this would remove the least amount of material at a time and over time

    #24288
    Steven N. Bolin
    Participant
    • Topics: 47
    • Replies: 456

    Not stupid questions, but I would hit the apex till it needed to be thinned, rinse repeat until there was a problem. I think this would remove the least amount of material at a time and over time

    I appreciate the response! 🙂 But I’m still confused.

    Let’s say there was a problem and you planned on doing some thinning, now what? I know the these lines in Japanese knives are strategically put there with sharpening in mind as they’re being made…

    #24294
    Aaron kimpton
    Participant
    • Topics: 8
    • Replies: 155

    if that were the case I would treat it like any other night knowing that any major repairs that I did might severely limit the life of the knife. Even so if I am doing that drastic of a repair, the usefulness of the knife is limited to the point that it’s utility and life are moot points.

    #24296
    Steven N. Bolin
    Participant
    • Topics: 47
    • Replies: 456

    Well, I don’t necessarily think that thinning this particular knife would , or even should be, a drastic repair job. To my understanding, thinning your Japanese Kitchen knives should be a part of your routine sharpening… I’m talking about thinning on water stones, not thinning on belts; maintenance, not repair.

    Thinning Your Knives (A Lecture)- Japanese Knife

    Thinning Your Knives (A Demonstration)
    Japanese …: http://youtu.be/twP_05UEHIM

    #24297
    Aaron kimpton
    Participant
    • Topics: 8
    • Replies: 155

    Well that is different, as I understood your question, you wanted to know how one would do it with we. In the case above, if I had no water stones. (I do) I would do as I originally said. Since I do, I wold use them.

    #24299
    Steven N. Bolin
    Participant
    • Topics: 47
    • Replies: 456

    I would do as I originally said.

    …I would hit the apex till it needed to be thinned, rinse repeat until there was a problem.

    if that were the case I would treat it like any other night…

    I would do as I originally said.

    I’m sorry but I still can’t seem to understand what method(s) you’re referring to and/or you personally resort to without water stones…

    #24310
    Leo Barr
    Participant
    • Topics: 26
    • Replies: 812

    A Nakiri is designed to be used in a similar way to a Usaba(single bevel)often it is used to peel thin sheets of radishes or cucumber carrots & that sort of thing so the blade needs to be exceptionally sharp and this also means that it needs a thin profile. So i would recommend that you thin behind the blade edge every time you sharpen it .
    The knife pictured is my only honyaki knife so solid blue steel I have thinned it and in fact raised the thinned line by about 15% this particular knife is an oddity for a Nakiri been an honyaki forged blade I got it since it was relativly cheap for an honyaki some cost thousands most honyaki forged blades are reserved for traditional Japanese styles.
    So in conclusion if you are to attempt to peel ultra thin then it needs to be well tuned , I do not see the profile but if it is yours or you are likely to sharpen it again I would thin it incrementally if you think it could do with it .
    You should gentle pinch the blade starting at the spine it should feel like a smooth graduation down to the edge.
    I thin mine to the edge & then raise the angle a fraction & put a micro bevel on it with either 8 or 10K stone I don’t think you can see the micro bevel in the picture it is very small since the blade is quite thin .
    I hope that helps a little

    #24311
    Leo Barr
    Participant
    • Topics: 26
    • Replies: 812

    if you are changing profiles on knives it is best to do it incrementally firstly if you are doing it by hand it is a slow process and it is best not to tire since you may well mess it up do say 5 passes see whats happening if the top of the thinning line is going where you want it then maybe do another 5 passes then flip it over and go back and forth .
    What you are doing when thinning is if you think of the side profile as a belly you are flattening that curve iy you are happy with the height of it then the lower part of the flattening will eventually reach the blade edge .
    I think that this is best done on bench stones since although using things like double riser blocks on the WE it may be possible to reach a low enough angle I thing the friction is possible going to cause movement so I would stick to bench stones .
    I found I always used to convex with bench stones but with a lot of loupe use & control I am able to do flat bevels as done on a WE it takes practice & determination but the better freehand sharpeners do this way at least for the micro bevels.
    The WE or the EP helps to teach one what to aim for the beauty of bench stone is there is no setting up.
    But for some the joy of the tools is to adapt them for specific jobs I made a gig for my EP to do a round knife (leather knife) I have to say the WE does these better without any special adapters although I do it by hand now.
    I do like the WE but I feel if or when I use it I am robbing myself of a step closer shall we say of sharpening nirvana .
    I find there is always doubt could I get it sharper or more suited to its proposed use be it sharpening with the WE or freehand or any other technique.
    I ramble on.

    #24312
    Steven N. Bolin
    Participant
    • Topics: 47
    • Replies: 456

    Leo!You!Rock!

    Now… I’m going to chew on your words over the next few days… Probably longer.

    #24316
    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 2095

    Leo: Amazing that you should mention radishes. This week I was slicing veggies for a salad and I grabbed a very cheap Chicago 8″ chef’s knife to try out a convex edge I’d put in a few weeks ago. When I tried to take very thin slices, I was stunned to see that the knife simply wouldn’t work! As the knife proceeded downward, the edge would be forced to the “thin” side, making it almost impossible to cut a truly thin slice. It was obvious that the thickness of the blade at the shoulders of the bevels was the culprit. Aha! Finally an opportunity to tackle a thinning job.

    I have a Rikon 6X48″ belt sander and I installed a 400-grit belt to start with. After some truly awful first stabs at it, I settled in on lying the blade flat on the belt, edge trailing, with the point angled upstream at about 45 degrees. I applied pressure with my fingers along the back of the edge and as I felt heat, I’d take the blade to a pan of cold water, where I had a Bounty paper towel soaking. I’d wipe the blade down to cool it, then return to the belt. I did this on both sides and was amazed at how quickly and how uniformly the process went. In less than ten minutes, the edge was down to about 0.020″ just behind the bevels. I cleaned the blade up with polishing wheels of 400 and 600 grit and finished with Ken Schwartz’s 16 and 4 micron diamond wheels. The finish is better than the factory finish . I put on a 15-dps edge with the WEPS and cutting radishes is now an unreal experience. If the blade doesn’t stand up very well with the 15 dps edge, I’ll put on a micro-bevel of about 20 dps.

    Now I know that doing this to a Japanese knife would subject me to banishment from the forum, 😛 but for the millions of cheap kitchen knives out there, there is hope. You needn’t invest a week of effort to achieve your goals.

    #24322
    Leo Barr
    Participant
    • Topics: 26
    • Replies: 812

    If I have a lot of knives to do and there is a Shun without a tip I will put that on my Robert Sorby pro edge belt sander There are a handful of Japanese knives I would do it on it Global Tojiro MAC O shen & maybe a couple other the O Shen & The Tojiro are particularly thick knives anything better I wouldn’t do it on the belt like use I have a bowl of water and dunk the knife after each pass someone said to keep the blade below 100ËšC to avoid detempering.

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