Super polished edges

[Readheads]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>It’s a personal thing.  Almost like the satisfaction you get when you clean a window perfectly (I find newspaper does a great final polish).  Yeah, it starts getting dirty the second you walk away but the satisfaction still lingers.</p>
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1 user thanked author for this post.

CliffCurry

[Anonymous]

Tom, thanks for the reply… I have to qualify my knowledge  and quest to seek understanding, and not as a means to disrespect what seems to me to be very important to those here…

I was never totally happy with my knives, but I could get them to an edge where they were sharp ” enough ” to do the work.  To give you an example of ignorance is bliss… I used the same kitchen knives for 20 years, and never sharpened them.. I got the job done. My attempts at sharpening, over the last 50 years , was much less than what I was able to achieve  the very  first day with my WEPS.  I never really knew a sharp knife, or the controllability of the slice. I could cut tomatoes now in an ” S ” pattern, if I chose too.  I can see that a knife will pass easier through flesh with an acute angle, and understand the resistance of an obtuse edge.   What I can not digest is the interests in a + – .5 degree.  AS if someone could tell whether or not, one bevel was .5 degree from another.  I can understand the push factor of different bevels from one side to the other.. and I guess there is nothing wrong with trying to make everything a symmetrical as possible…  after 50 years of cutting tomatoes with knives that were never re sharpened,, I’m thrilled beyond imagination from driving a knife through a tomato, like a sports car driver.. If this quest is a hobby, I can understand the OCD value…  but how practical as a tool is it to be so precise that a few passes through anything will change that preciseness. BTW, I do use a knife to cut more than tomatoes. LOL

My EDC is used daily as a utility knife, to cut through rope, twine, cardboard, plastic, tape, wood, steak, a carrot, beef jerky etc. I don’t do any micro surgery. Even when I was healthy enough to go hunting, my knives were never sharp as I know they could be before I learned what a truly sharp knife actually is.  AS I said before, with the variables in the rods, paddles, guides, blade edge flex, its easy to see a stackable deflection in  not only minutes of Angle ( MOA ) along the whole edge but also in several thousands of an inch.  If you can not control these factors when stacked, you can not achieve closer tolerances when you can’t control the variables. Variable that are not controllable, like position of your hand ( finger tips )when controlling the paddle, like the pressure applied, without some sort of calibrated pressure indicator, like the difference between you left side pressure and your right side pressure. Like your absolute body position to the center line of the knife. Like the position of the paddle in relationship to the edge. eg.. the stone is 5 inches + long..  to be more precise, the stone should be about 1/4 inch. so the reference point would be the same.. you can not get repeatability if you use the whole 5 inches to stroke the edge, if you apply the same pressure through out the stoke, the moment of angle changes and with that so does the pressure applied. If you had a guide profile of the edge of each knife then  you could use that guide to actually guide the paddle so the MOA would be constant throughout the stroke, and the edge would see the same pressure through each stroke. Just some thoughts to ponder in the quest for perfection…

For me, I guess ignorance is bliss, because I’m happier that a slinky on an escalator.  using my WEPS. 🙂

[Anonymous]

tcmeyer wrote:

Bill: Depending on what you are cutting, a polished bevel will slide through the media more easily than a more roughly finished bevel. I find this is especially true with flesh. A 600 grit edge will certainly bite you, but a polished edge will cut deeper before you notice it. Try it out with a tomato.

I’m using 16* degree angles on my two ( go too ) kitchen utilities, and find that they need to be touched up every week… prior to knowing a truly sharp knife, my go too kitchen knives were never sharpened in 20 years.. they cut a tomato, but not to the controllable degree I now have.  I think a 16* degree angle that is straight and not notchie ( full of edge nicks ) and a bevel finish of # 1000 grit, will cut through a tomato just as well as a 16*degree edge with a straight edge and a  mirrored bevel. .  So my mind can not wrap itself around this quest for perfection with so many variables inherent to the WEPS and the human factor.

[Readheads]

My wife says you sound like me.   My quest (sort of) is not the repeatability over rhetoric edge during a sharpening session but the next time I do the knife, I do not want to have to raise a burr to know I am there.  The sharpie thing is the only way now.

BTW, I just planted my 12 types of heirloom tomato seeds today.  It’s 20 degree in Jersey today.

[Anonymous]

IN the suburbs of Philly today, It was 4* degrees F. early this morning and 14* F when I went out at 11 am. Spring seems so far away.

seeding for summer

[CliffCurry]

I think there is a fine line between stroking your own ego and taking pride in craftsmanship and setting a high bar for technical achievement.  This forum topic is “Super Polished Edges” after all.

When I first started using the WEPS I was astounded at how beautiful the mirrored edges were and strove to learn the materials, techniques, and adjustments to the WEPS that would allow me to do that.  It is a quest for perfection a striving for excellence that has been the motivation for many to continue delving deeper into just was is possible within this imperfect system with all its flaws and variables.

We have discussions about how to reduce variance in the equipment, how to improve our technique, and better abrading materials.  To me personally that has been the highlights of this amazing forum.  I remember the first Mod I heard of was using Subway soda straws to reduce the slop between rods & paddles.  Now we have users installing custom bushings and reducing the play to nil.  Sharing that discussion of progress and innovation  is a collaborative and supportive forum, with the encouragement of the actual company owner, is amazing and in my opinion why the WEPS continues to improve.

On a technical note if I finish a edge to 600 grit it will be “toothy”, thats a given.  If I finish it to 2000 grit it will be less toothy.  So what happens if I finish and edge bevel to 3 microns?   .3 microns?  .003 microns How far can we go?  They dont call it a rabbit hole for nothing(but please dont call me Dorothy)!

1 user thanked author for this post.

Josh

[Anonymous]

This thread has been going 5 years. Obviously Clay is an expert, he has the experience and the drive… I see beautiful mirrored edges not only by him, but by all the other passionate people on this forum… I see ” shiny “…

I know nothing about knife sharpening, I don’t clam to be an expert, or close to it. People have been doing this for a long time… If this thread is all about mirrored finishes and the time and experience necessary to hone this skill then I am abit confused as to the learning curve… I did this edge after only a few weeks of even knowing a WEPS system existed. I’m mot tooting my horn here, and maybe its because I don’t know any better, but I really can’t see much difference in this knife of mine, and those of others, or how years of experience would show a dramatically different edge. If I can produce this after two weeks, what would five years of experience and questing given me?  I have to keep qualifying my comments as not being a troll, or bad mouthing this system. I love it, and for the most part I’m being the devils advocate to evoke discussion… as far as bushings and straws go. can anyone really tell by looing if a knife was sharpened using stones that are bushinged ? I’m just provoking some thoughts and discussion.

Just how much better would five/ 10  years of experience bring to this knife of mine?  I can slice paper with it from any point of the edge, and I can swirl the cut and repeat that swirl 1/4 inch away from the previous cut… When I show off this knife, my EDC, everyone is amazed by the mirrored edge, and remember, ” I know nothing about sharpening a knife.. a simple display of it sharpness causes everyone to want to buy a WEPS , that is until I tell them the cost…. most think I am exaggerating… most say a 20 dollar wet stone can produce the same effect… and I say , IN 50 years I have never been able to do that.. people get pissed off and it is hardly worth showing it off. remember I am old and the people I show it off too , for the most part are old and most still have their recess money from when they were a kid.

[Readheads]

Hey ET, what are you growing in that setup ?

Where are you in Philly ?

Jende Industries is doing a club type get together on Feb 7 in Brick NJ. Do you want to come ?

Where are you in Philly ?

Do you ever go to Wildwood ?

 

[Anonymous]

IM growing tomato seeds in that hydroponic garden

I’m not in Philly, and I’m too internet security savvy to be too specific.  IM close to Philly, in the suburbs.

Ummm,  it would be fairly tough for me to travel back in time to attend a get together that occurred  a week ago.

I live close to the McCarthy family just outside of Philly.

IN my 71 years of life, I’ve been to Wildwood  about 100 times. I stopped going when the family atmosphere changed. I’m not a fan of rap music and people walking while grabbing their crotch, with their pants around their knees.  Both of my children where conceived in Wildwood, 40 years ago when Wildwood was really nice. I stopped going about 15 years ago.

It all might be the drugs, at this time of night , my body is full of poison,,,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Readheads]

It’s Feb 27 in Brick.  Checkout Seapointe in Diamond Beach WW.  2 miles south of the Boardwalk?

<span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>My daughter goes to TCNJ so we end up in Philly occasionally.</span>

[Anonymous]

WE use to go the  Diamond Beech Club all the time. Ed McMahon’s ( of Johnny Carson fame ) a family friend … house was just outside the gate. That was 45 years ago.

I’m on this forum to learn a few things. I don’t have too much interest in going to get together… IM not that healthy and while its not far, I would rather spend the time close to my family…having a sharp knife or the ability to share some discussion is fine with me, but in the grand scheme of things, sharpening a knife is a low priority. That doesn’t mean I don’t respect this forum or the equipment or the people. I’m just fascinated with a level of passion.

In this forum I am more of a taker than a giver.. in other forums I am an extreme giver ( Automotive,  photographic, high end watches, guns and ammo. ).

[Mark76]

Anonymous wrote:

in the grand scheme of things, sharpening a knife is a low priority.

Johan Cruijff (curious whether you know him) once said that soccer is the most important side issue in life. He was a good philosopher too…

Your contributions here are appreciated, by the way.

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Anonymous]

Thanks Mark, It a fine line between,being active here, curious and full of questions, and appearing to be a troll. I’m more interested in the culture and motivation then I am about super precision OCD mentality. With all the inherent variables, I can not see the reality of the precision that I know to be precission, with so many uncontrollable variables.

I understand the idea is to get these variables under control. But without transducers, and pressure sensors, you can never truly control these variables.

You would need a CNC GRINDER with a programed profile of the blade to achieve precision repeatability.

 

It’s important to me to know that people accept that my septicism is sincere and not meant to be disruptive.

[Josh]

Polished vs toothy edges has been discussed all over the net in about every knife forum you can find. There are people that prefer one over the other, because they use their knives differently and cut different items. Toothy edges are designed for slicing/drawing aggression, whereas polished edges are not. Polished edges are designed for push cutting (i.e. picking one point of the edge and pushing through the medium). In my opinion the need for polished edges is pretty limited (straight razor shaving, wood working, or some other things) however, I mirror edges for a few reasons.

1. It’s in demand and people want it. They don’t just want it to be a perfect mirror (no haziness whatsoever), they want it to either whittle or sever a hanging hair from a single point of hold. In my journey down this path there is a large difference between just shaving curly q’s off of phone book paper and getting to HHT-4 level. It is a challenging objective that is not difficult to obtain if done correctly but for most it takes a while to figure out not only the equipment, but also the technique.
2. It’s for looks. It stuns people when you show them a mirrored edge. Another way I know it’s for looks is because why don’t you hardly ever see someone throwing a 15 dps bevel on their knife through 1k grit then applying a hair whittling mirrored microbevel – this would be function over form. If someone spends $700 on a Wicked Edge they want for their edges to look GOOD, and they enjoy sharpening. This makes for a perfect combination.
3. Some people use their blades in a way that would benefit from a mirrored edge.

As I’ve stated elsewhere a mirrored edge isn’t my preference on my own EDC’s at this point, but I will be processing a pig soon with a hair whittling mirrored edge to compare (I just processed one w/ a toothy edge recently). I use my knives in such a way that I like slicing aggression. And when you consider the cost/time factor of the mirrored edge (Takes anywhere from 1-5 hours depending on your level of experience, to do correctly) then it’s just not that practical for me personally. one thing that will greatly reduce the time spend mirroring an edge is thinning out the primary grind so the edge is thinner (about 10 thou at 15 dps at the shoulders of the edge), it will cut the time to about 1/3rd of what it was taken.

Experience plays a huge roll in my opinion… some people pick it up quicker, others are slower. If you are sort of ambidextrous then it will be much easier. But even then you must know how to hold the paddles, where to apply the pressure on an edge leading or edge trailing pass (it changes depending on the direction, because of the play. If you don’t vary the pressure of your hold you will end up w/ a multi faceted bevel unless you have made mods to your WEPS), how much pressure to use, how to finish the edge, how to strop (pressure plus angle), etc etc.

[wickededge]

Cliff, that’s awesome stuff! Thanks for posting and coming up with a really cool and unique way of showing off the bevel via video.

Bill – Tom’s right that the method of cutting and the material being cut have a lot to do with the performance of different edge finishes. I’ve found that toothy edges are great for slice/draw cutting techniques, especially when the material to cut has a hard exterior. When you’re cutting, what you’re really doing is rupturing a surface and the micro-teeth allow an extreme concentration of force onto a very small area, enough to initiate the rupture. I think a saw is the best analogy – if you look at it edge on, the points of the teeth are all over the place. That works well for draw cutting because you want for all the force you’re applying to be concentrated on a single tooth to start that rupture. Now imagine pushing that toothy edge straight into something – you’d have all those points distributing the force over a wide area. It’s not very helpful for push-cutting like shaving or carving, for the same reason a person can lie down on a bed of nails and not get perforated. You can extend the analogy to the edge of a woodworker’s chisel. If the edge were widened because of micro-teeth, the ability to concentrate force along a single, very clean line would be diminished and the force would be spread out over a larger area. Now imagine grabbing that guy on the bed of nails by his feet and pulling him. He’d get shredded because of the draw-cutting action. So, a toothy edge for draw-cutting and a polished edge for push-cutting. In general. An exception is a high polish on a very narrow, acute edge. If you have a very thin kitchen knife that’s sharpened at 11° degrees per side, or even lower, a polished edge will work very well through a tomato. That’s because the width of the edge is so small, you’re still getting a great concentration of force. Additionally, you have a very slim profile that needs to be pushed through the material, so there is very little drag on the blade. A thick blade sharpened at 25° per side and taken to a high polish won’t do very well with the tomato. It will just slide along the surface.

-Clay

[Author]

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