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Strop vs Lapping Film

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  • #38786
    Rich
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 51

    Thanks everyone for your input.  I will begin to experiment with the strops.  I did receive the lapping films and have been playing with them.  I am finding that once you go from the diamond stones to ceramics or glass platens, the thickness changes slightly throwing off the sharpening angle.  Has anyone else experienced this?

    How about experience with the thickness compensation plate accessory?  It becomes very time consuming to put on the angle cube, ensure its plumb with a framing square, and make necessary adjustments.  I am finding this repeated process is throwing off my sharpening angle and my results are showing it. Advice and shared experiences appreciated.

    #38793
    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 2098

    I modified my stones a long time ago to tighten the slop between the rods and the handles.  Unfortunately, I didn’t hit the distances between the stone faces and the bores consistently, so I’ve been using the Variable Stone Thickness Adapters for several years (and with great success.)  It only takes a few seconds to set the micro-adjusts to compensate for any errors, however, I have found that I’ve occasionally missed the angle by something around 0.1 degrees, especially at the higher grits.  The scratches from the previous grit are still visible either at the apex or at the shoulder.  About one-third of a turn of the micro-adjust screws makes the necessary correction.  The key is to get the VSTA to tighten onto the degree bar without skewing too much and to always be consistent in the technique.

    Lately, I’ve been using a Gen 3 Pro, which doesn’t have provisions for variable stone thickness.  I still have the problem with my stones though, so I’ve had to resort to my angle-cube.  I switched to the DXL-360 a while back and it seems to be faster and more accurate than the Igaging unit I started with.  It’s a bit of a pain with non-ferrous platens, but I’m not really annoyed by it.  The adjustment knob with the 0.1 rev scaling marks makes it easier to make an adjustment, once you know the error.  The photo is for the Gen 2, but I done it the same on my Gen 3 Pro.

    IMG_0510 compressed

     

    #38807
    Marc H
    Moderator
    • Topics: 75
    • Replies: 2742

    Rich which model are you using?

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    #38815
    Rich
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 51

    WE120.  I have the Pro Pack 2.

    #38818
    Marc H
    Moderator
    • Topics: 75
    • Replies: 2742

    WE120. I have the Pro Pack 2.

    I’m not following why you use a framing square. Changing angles is a necessary, unavoidable, part of it. You will get quicker and it will get faster as you do it more. You’ll learn and remember how many holes you need to slide the arms to adjust the angle when switching from diamonds to ceramics or glass. Then next time you just know to move it, in or out, 1 or 2 or 3 holes right away. That change will be predictably the same always when switching to that same stone type.  The micro-adjustments are pretty predictable too. I use a Wixey angle every grit change. Even if I just flip the stone around to the other side. (But I use Shapton wetstones often. Wetstones are lapped fairly frequently so they may vary more than diamonds, ceramics or glass, from side to side.) Like TCMeyer, I count the flats on the micro-adjustment hex screws as I twist them in or out to make the fine angle adjustments. I have observed that its about 1 to 1-1/2 flats of the hexagon for every 0.1 degree I need to add or subtract. Depending on the steepness of the sharpening angle that number varies some too. So again, with time, if you can make and remember those observations your adjustments will become quicker and easier. I did upgrade, when I was able, to the Gen 3 clamp on my Gen 2 Pro. That took the lean out when clamping Full Flat Ground (FFG) knives so I could clamp each different knife centered and vertical, quickly and reliably.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    #38829
    Rich
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 51

    MarcH,

    I use a framing square to make sure the angle cube is perfectly vertical “plumb”.  As you rotate the angle cube, the measured angle changes.

    What is a Wixey Angle?  Where did you get the micro adjustment knobs you show in your photo?  Very nice!  I used wire nuts but like your method MUCH better.

    #38832
    Marc H
    Moderator
    • Topics: 75
    • Replies: 2742

    The adjustment knobs are TCMeyer’s deal. I think he gets them from MCalister. He has Forum posts explaining it, possible under “Mods”. Wixey is the brand of Angle meter both Tom and I are using.

    I zero the angle cube on the WE base then I measure the angle of the stone on the rod as its resting against the knife tip to determine bevel angle, relative to the base. Isn’t that what you do?

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    #38842
    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 2098

    I buy the knob hardware from McMaster.com.  I have a Wixey angle cube, but I never liked it.  The DXL-360 seems faster, more accurate, more convenient and it doesn’t need to be zeroed every time you turn it on.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #38846
    Marc H
    Moderator
    • Topics: 75
    • Replies: 2742

    I have a Wixey angle cube, but I never liked it. The DXL-360 seems faster, more accurate, more convenient and it doesn’t need to be zeroed every time you turn it on.

    Tom, (I know you don’t like it…Wixey doesn’t need be zeroed each time, either. I have double checked Wixey against IGaging and 0.1 accurate Wixey matches 0.01 accurate IGaging exactly to 100th of degree.)

    I ordered Floureon DXL-360 too. Coming Thurs. Will give it a go.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    #38849
    Rich
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 51

    An angle measuring device which does not require to be zeroed assumes that the base is perfectly level every use.  Otherwise, you would be getting inaccurate readings…

    #38850
    Marc H
    Moderator
    • Topics: 75
    • Replies: 2742

    I have a Wixey angle cube, but I never liked it. The DXL-360 seems faster, more accurate, more convenient and it doesn’t need to be zeroed every time you turn it on.

    Tom, (I know you don’t like it…Wixey doesn’t need be zeroed each time, either. I have double checked Wixey against IGaging and 0.1 accurate Wixey matches 0.01 accurate IGaging exactly to 100th of degree.) I ordered Floureon DXL-360 too. Coming Thurs. Will give it a go.

    Rich- I wrote “each time” I turned it on, to use it. It just happens that I’m lucky that my work table is flat and reads 0.0 degrees. (If I remove the batteries, then replace them in my Wixey (or one of my other makes of angle cubes), turn it on and take a new reading it still reads 0.0 degrees (i.e., flat).

    Each subsequent time I turn it on it continues to read zero and doesn’t require to be zeroed, i.e., press the zero function key. Each time I clamp and sharpen a different knife I always “zero” the instrument when I start. Again that is I check if my work place still is level. Either way when you press the “zero function key” your using that surface as your reference and accepting to call it zero (0.0 degrees) relative.

    The angle I am sharpening knives to is a relative angle. It is not determined against a “scientific reference standard” like you would use in a laboratory for precise, accurate or sensitive equipment. The bevel angle I’m sharpening my knife to is relative to the blue base of my Wicked Edge sharpener, the granite base the WE Sharpener is mounted to and the table that it sits on. (All three of them coincidentally and separately read 0.0 degrees, with my instrument.) So I am sharpening my knives relative to my zeroed surface.

    If the angle I sharpened my knife to was measured with a scientific instrument like a “Laser Catra Hobbigoni Edge Protractor” http://www.catra.org.uk/CATRA_Hobbigoni_blade_edge_protractor_p/cuhg.htm it may not measure the same 15.0 degrees, or whatever, I set my WE Sharpener to, based on the angle gauge I’m using at the time. I’m perfectly OK with that. For my purpose my knife has a relative 15 degree bevel edge. The accuracy I want with the WE is repeatable consistency, not absolute scientific standard accuracy. Each time I sharpen that knife at those same clamping and arm angle settings, with my same WE Sharpener, I get the same consistent results.

    I have read too many posts where people are worried that they didn’t get the knife angle sharpened correctly to some specified angle number. The numbers we use are a numerical naming for the steepness of the bevel. We as knife users and sharpeners have learned a 12 degree angle which is relatively very steep gives us a cutting point that wears and holds up differently than say a 17 degree sharpened angle or a wider still 20 degree angle, for a particular metal hardness. Different angles reflect different steepness which relates to durability, wearability, and cutability and is affected by metal hardness and the heat treating hardening process too. I strive to sharpen my knives relative to one of those referenced angles to get the results others before me have learned through knife use and sharpening experience based on using that particular kind of steel knife and hardness sharpened to that relative angle.

    Sorry, forgive my rant and sorry to be lecturing but this subject of the “correct”angles I think worries too many new WE users. It’s all relative.

     

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    #38851
    Rich
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 51

    I fully understand. I just wanted to confirm that the base was sitting level if the angle cube was not being zeroed to it. If the base was out of level, and the angle cube not zeroed, as you know, it would throw everything off by that angle.  Some may have read that and not understood…

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #38853
    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 2098

    I’ve always powered my AngleCube down with each use to preserve battery life.  More so with the DXL-360.  I now have three different WE rigs and I certainly re-zero the anglecube I’m using for each rig.  The rig doesn’t move, once it’s been put in place.  My Wixey is about five years old and reads out only to 0.1 degrees.  My Igaging ‘cube reads out to 0.05 degrees and needs to be tapped a few times to get it to settle into a final reading.  My DXL-360 reads out to 0.02 degrees and doesn’t seem to need as much jostling to get it to settle onto a final reading.

    If you’ve read my posts over the past few years, you’d know that I only concern myself with relative angles.  With my modified handles, I can see 0.1 degree differences in the scratch patterns of higher grits and will correct for such errors if appropriate.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #38879
    Mark76
    Participant
    • Topics: 179
    • Replies: 2760

    Going back to the second post and the reference to the Science of Sharp article (one of my favorite blogs). There’s one thing I don’t understand. It says stropping increases keenness at the cost of edge width: the edge is slightly convexed and thus becomes broader (although the convexing is far less than we sometimes think: if done well, the increase in width only concerns the top few microns). However, what I don’t understand is how this increases keenness.

    The main reason is that English is not my first language. I always thought keenness was a synonym to sharpness. Even my dictionary seems to explain it this way. But apparently it is not. Can anyone explain this to me?

     

    Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

    #38880
    cbwx34
    Participant
    • Topics: 57
    • Replies: 1505

    Going back to the second post and the reference to the Science of Sharp article (one of my favorite blogs). There’s one thing I don’t understand. It says stopping increases keenness at the cost of edge width: the edge is slightly convexed and thus becomes broader (although the convexing is far less than we sometimes think: if done well, the increase in width only concerns the top few microns). However, what I don’t understand is how this increases keenness. The main reason is that English is not my first language. I always thought keenness was a synonym to sharpness. Even my dictionary seems to explain it this way. But apparently it is not. Can anyone explain this to me?

    Did you see these pages?

    Definitions of Sharp and Keen

    Sharp and Keen part 2

    1 user thanked author for this post.
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