Strokes to progress to next grit database?

[Richard Jackson]

I know it would have variations from user to user. But I thought it may be neat for people to post what they typically do in their progression from one stone to the next. I would propose starting the next stone AFTER burr on each side is achieved is set.

So hypothetically say:

“Knife type and steel”
100 – burr
200 – alternating medium strokes @ 50/s
300 – alternating medium trokes @ 60/s
…
1000 – alternating light strokes @ 60/s
…
3.5mu – alternating very light strokes minus 2 degrees @ 100/s
…etc

End result –
Hair whittling

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[Mark76]

Hey drichardjackson,

It really depends. On the steel, on the pressure, on many things. Listen to the steel and you will know. That is what all experienced sharpeners will tell you and they are right.

But two years ago I was in the same situation as you. I couldn’t listen to the steel, because I didn’t know what it should sound like. I hardly knew what a burr felt like.

So here is a very indicative answer. 50 strokes per side.

It is no definitive answer. Just start there. If it works, fine. Maybe you could try less strokes. If it doesn’t work, go up to a 100 and then go down.

And in two years you won’t worry about the number of strokes anymore :cheer: .

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Leo James Mitchell]

I agree with Mark! Listening to your strokes is a very important skill to develop. You will get to know when everything is just right as time goes on. The same holds true for stropping I have found…when the angle is right there is a soft sound that is impossible to describe because individuals each will hear it differently…but you will know it when you hear it. Experience is the best teacher.
It is very Zen! What is the sound of one diamond paddle stroking Grasshopper? :silly: 😆 RIP David Carradine!

Leo

[Richard Jackson]

For us not so in tune yet. Do you typically notice you are using the same number of strokes as you progress up the grit/strop range or do you even count them at all? I completely understand getting to where you know what to feel and hear. But I think it would help if we greenhorns knew and idea of when to start looking for those changes in sound and feel. It’s like wine or beer tasting, sommeliers will teach their students to taste and smell different flavor profiles by sometimes first giving the students a wine and saying that this wine has hints of vanilla, citrus, dark cherry and chocolate etc. Then the students can start picking up what the teacher is saying. So the teacher is not only telling then what to taste for but also giving a hands on example of what that taste tastes like in a wine.

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[Richard Jackson]

Sorry for the lovely typos… IPhone typing is no fun sometimes.

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[Leo James Mitchell]

Mark has already given a suggested number of strokes in the second post above. It is as good as any as a starting point. There are many factors governing the number of stokes as he has explained, so try beginning with Mark’s tip. Everybody learns differently.
There was no forum when I started nearly 4 years ago, just the booklet that came with the WEPS. With Clay’s suggestions from time to time and my own failures and successes, I came up with my own way. Everyone will take a different path but all leading to the same place…some will get there faster than others.

Cheers
Leo

[tcmeyer]

From my brief experience, I think the number of strokes with each step up in grit is determined by three things, A; The type and hardness of the steel, B; The length of the blade, and C; How important it is for you to completely eliminate scratches from earlier grits. I’m assuming here that your hand pressure is reasonably constant, at least until the highest grits. If not, then pressure becomes a fourth variable.

A. Steel:
Obviously, harder and/or tougher steels will require more strokes than softer, less tough steels.

B. Length:
Each (typical) stroke moves the stone vertically and horizontally relative to the blade. The longer the blade, the less abrasive area contacting any one point along the blade. It’s simple geometry and stands to reason that a longer blade will require more strokes to achieve the same amount of abrasion as a shorter blade.
I have a batch of seven small Seki-made pocket knives, which I think are made of ATS-6. The blades are only about 1.5″ long and I typical sharpen them all in a single batch. I learned early on that they only required 6 strokes per side with each grit to erase all apparent evidence of the previous grit. I don’t sharpen these blades beyond the 1000 grit diamond stones, so can’t testify whether the rule applies to higher grits. I also do not normally use the 100/200 stones except to major re-profiling.

C. Polish:
If you are fanatical about removing any and all scratches, you’ll probably find that the number of strokes required may increase by a factor of 10 or more over the number required for a simple sharpening. You’ll also need to get fanatical about eliminating cross-contamination. If you have the eye-hand coordination, try changing the direction which each step up in grit and check your work with a loupe or microscope. It’s the best way to confirm that prior scratches are gone.

Bottom line? Same answer as everybody else… It depends.

[Mark76]

Richard, that’s why I said 50. And I think Leo and others have given enough disclaimers. It’s a starting point and from there on you will learn the finer things.

When stropping I do less strokes. At least, usually. When you read my blog, you can see that to determine the effect of some stropping compounds, I once did 500 strokes per side :woohoo: . But in practice it’s much less than 50. And I don’t do sweeping strokes with my strops anymore, only up-down strokes. I’ve nicked too many strops :angry: .

You may also want to watch some videos on the WEPS on Youtube. There are many of them and if you’re bored, you can even count the strokes 😉 .

Knife sharpening really is a craft. Part art, part science, part plain labour. And part Zen, as Leo emphasizes. That’s why I love it. It takes some effort to learn it, but the WEPS minimizes this effort.

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Richard Jackson]

Awesome thanks Leo, tcmeyer, and Mark! I have watched a ton of YouTube videos and I have sharpened a good few knives of many types and steels etc for a newbie. I think it is just the engineer in me that wants to have some concept of number of strokes, haha. I am not having trouble getting sharp edges at all. I haven’t hit hair whittling yet though. I would also like to minimize work spent and metal removed if at all possible. But I completely understand that I really need to start some studies and really try to feel/hear what the stones are telling me. Thanks again for your help!
My typical as of now usually goes:
-D2 and SG2: 60-70 strokes stones, 100+ strops
-S30V: 50 strokes stones, 70 strops
-AUS-8 and eq: 40 strokes stones, 60 strops
-AUS-6 and below: 30 strokes stones, 40 strops

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[Richard Jackson]

This forum is so awesome because people really want to see others succeed and grow more proficient with the WEPS! Awesome stuff!!

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[Gib Curry]

For us not so in tune yet. Do you typically notice you are using the same number of strokes as you progress up the grit/strop range or do you even count them at all? I completely understand getting to where you know what to feel and hear. But I think it would help if we greenhorns knew and idea of when to start looking for those changes in sound and feel. It’s like wine or beer tasting, sommeliers will teach their students to taste and smell different flavor profiles by sometimes first giving the students a wine and saying that this wine has hints of vanilla, citrus, dark cherry and chocolate etc. Then the students can start picking up what the teacher is saying. So the teacher is not only telling then what to taste for but also giving a hands on example of what that taste tastes like in a wine.

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I love this forum!! There are people way more advanced in the art of sharpening, the science of sharpening and the zen of sharpening.

Mentors and leaders in every direction!! How cool is that? (And now on this super-fast webserver!!)

My self-diagnosed OCD, I begin by using either 89 strokes. Why? It’s the closest number to 100 from the fibonacci sequence: 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144

As almost all the responders have mentioned is that it varies.

My brother is visiting from Fairbanks. He and his son both have SOG Twitch II. My brother’s knife had never been sharpened after leaving the factory: after setting the edge angle it didn’t take that many strokes at 200 and I was at the edge. Went right to the 400’s and immediately drew a burr, honed it off, and proceeded to polish out the previous grit lines. Went up through the fine ceramics — beautiful and arm-hair shaving.

His son had been hand-sharpening (not well) his SOG and it took much longer. The bevels were visibly different sizes and we measured them as +/- .5 mm difference.

It took awhile. I started 400 but quickly dropped down to 100. There were two stubborn spots: one at the heel of the blade and one on the very tip. At the heel was an existing horizontal scratch in the bevel. At the tip, it looked like something “hard” was push cut and ever-so-slightly dented the edge.

I worked the 100’s, then the 200’s and then went up to the 400’s and at each level reset the angle with the cube. (My nephew wasn’t there but my brother was, so we used it as a teaching/learning experience.)

Using frequent use of the marker I/we gradually brought the two bevels together. Then, I tried to raise a burr. Nope.

Through the loupe, I found a section near the dented tip that was 3-4 mm that retained marker.

So, back down to 200’s, then back up to 400. Worked and worked another 100 very light strokes and time to work up the burr. I “thought” I had one, but just wasn’t 100% sure. So, I cleaned the blade really well, remarked the edge, took a few strokes on each side and really examined the edge. There was a length of edge less than the width of an UltraFine marker (.3 mm — according to Sharpie’s website) at that dented tip. (The scratch at the back was almost gone and didn’t affect the edge of the edge in any case.)

We had begun counting the number of stroke grit lines per millimeter!! Once he and I both confirmed that the spot (smaller than a pencil lead) was gone and we had really, truly reached the edge, I tried to raise a burr. It took only a few more strokes and it was no longer guess work — the burr was obvious at 400 grit the whole length of the blade.

Once we got that last micro-spot profiled, it seemed the whole blade was done and not a stroke sooner.

We left it at that last night very, very late, because from now on it’s polishing. I’ll finish that this morning.

Before we were finished, my brother and I both understood a deeper level of the listening aspect. He even suggested I get a microphone for my bench stereo system so I can hear better. He called it a magnifying lens for the sound — just as important.

~~~~

I ramble…. and all just to support the already given replies…..

Enjoy the process.

~~~~
For Now,

Gib

Φ

"Everyday edge for the bevel headed"

"Things work out best for those who make the best out of the way things work out."

[Eamon Mc Gowan]

Awesome thanks Leo, tcmeyer, and Mark! I have watched a ton of YouTube videos and I have sharpened a good few knives of many types and steels etc for a newbie. I think it is just the engineer in me that wants to have some concept of number of strokes, haha. I am not having trouble getting sharp edges at all. I haven’t hit hair whittling yet though. I would also like to minimize work spent and metal removed if at all possible. But I completely understand that I really need to start some studies and really try to feel/hear what the stones are telling me. Thanks again for your help!
My typical as of now usually goes:
-D2 and SG2: 60-70 strokes stones, 100+ strops
-S30V: 50 strokes stones, 70 strops
-AUS-8 and eq: 40 strokes stones, 60 strops
-AUS-6 and below: 30 strokes stones, 40 strop
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I have to agree with Mark and Leo. Also the answer is absolute ” it depends”. This is a craft where no one can tell anther sharpener he is wrong? If your system gets the results you are looking for then it is right!
That said if you come on the forum and admit you are not getting the desired results then it would be time to try anther method.
I too have quite counting my strokes, but when new to the WE I think it is a great guideline! I have to agree with Mark and use 50 as the target mark. Also there has been multiple reports on the forum of rounding an edge from over stropping an edge. For me? I never go over 20 strokes. That includes working the super steels. and I will include learned from Clay reduce the angle by 2°.
For me the most important factor is to make sure I’m still having fun? It is really easy to take yourself way to serious with the WE with trying to achieve perfection. I found myself walking around muttering to myself cause the edges where not perfect! Relax have fun and your senses will open more to you when your in the Zen mode!!!!!
Again have fun and keep asking lots of questions. That’s why the “old-timers” hang out, they love to share the info passed on to them. :cheer:

[Leo Barr]

It sounds as if it was a really good learning experience that will be an asset to you in the future I have done simular things or found that perhaps at the tip I had not worked the bevel to the edge .
The lesson learned I think is if it takes too long to get sharp there is either a flattened edge and the bevel has not reached it or the bevel angle is unnecessarily low .
But reading about these pitfalls is only part of it I think you have to fall into these traps to actually get through them it is unlikely they will catch you again.

[Eamon Mc Gowan]

It sounds as if it was a really good learning experience that will be an asset to you in the future I have done simular things or found that perhaps at the tip I had not worked the bevel to the edge .
The lesson learned I think is if it takes too long to get sharp there is either a flattened edge and the bevel has not reached it or the bevel angle is unnecessarily low .
But reading about these pitfalls is only part of it I think you have to fall into these traps to actually get through them it is unlikely they will catch you again.

Hear, hear!

[wickededge]

One way to think of it that helps me is to imagine the grooves that are being cut into the blade by a given stone. For example, you might work with the 100 grit stones to create your bevels, going until you’ve drawn a burr from each side along the length of the blade. So now it’s time to switch to the 200 grit stones. When you do, you’ll feel resistance, or drag as you slide the stones along the blade. The resistance you’re feeling is from the ridges and valleys of the grooves. As you make more strokes, the resistance decreases, becomes a little less with each stroke. You’ll reach a point when each stroke feels the same, no longer is any decrease in resistance noticeable. At that point, you’re probably ready to switch grits. Once you do, you’ll experience the same progressively diminishing resistance until the strokes once again seem all the same. You will be able to both hear and feel the change in your hands.

-Clay

[Author]

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