Sigh…

[cbwx34]

Sigh…

(Clay, take on the challenge!)

Edit to add:  On 7/28/17… he posted a correction, and added this to the original post…

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Mark76

[Snecx]

So much misinformation on this video. The angle from the pivot changes but the angle in the edge is constant. He failed to understand the difference.

I’ll try do something.

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sksharp

[Mark76]

Yeah, he clearly missed something. Shall we send him Anthony’s document? I wrote a blog about this, too.

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

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sksharp

[Snecx]

He’s a visual guy, so I doubt he’ll bother to read so deep about it. It’s also sad to see how many people got it wrong, the same way he did.

Here’s my attempt to illustrate the angle issue as simple as I can possibly do.

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wickededge, Rich, sksharp, Organic, cbwx34, Marc H, Josh

[Josh]

His error is that:

1. He is trusting the angle measurement of the devise itself instead of using an independent digital angle finder (like the angle cube)
2. He is mixing a side view (on the paper drawing) and a top view (when he measures) which is confusing.

Snecx that video above is PERFECT to give a visual demonstration from the side view, thanks for that! The reason the angle cube changes ‘at the pivot’ is because it’s being rotated, but as you demonstrate when it’s kept up and down (simulating the stone’s contact with the edge) it doesn’t change.

So in my understanding, a straight line doesn’t change, and an arc in perfect match with the arms rotation wouldn’t change, it’s when you vary from either of these two that the angle changes can occur. This is why we have ‘finding the sweet spot’ issues, because the further you move the knife’s blade back in the vise or the more you tilt the tip downward (with the handle up in the air) on most knives this affects the way the belly interacts with the arc of the rod arms and thus the angle can increase or decrease there.

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sksharp, Mark76, Marc H

[cbwx34]

I actually emailed him after the first video he did… and he must have read it, ’cause he referenced it in the above video… then dismissed it as people not knowing what they’re talking about.

Snecx, your video is good, and I understand it… problem is, a person who believes that the angle does change, will interpret it as, by not rotating the angle gauge, you’re moving the pivot down the edge (like it’s on a rail).  I know that’s not the case, but am betting that’s the response.

I really think Clay should contact him… since it might be beneficial to get it straight from the source… especially a source he says is wrong.  I doubt he’s gonna listen to anyone else.  If he actually ground a little on that steel he put in for the demo… he’d see there’s not a 6˚ difference.

Oh well, time will tell I suppose………

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sksharp

[Josh]

cbwx34 wrote:

I actually emailed him after the first video he did… and he must have read it, ’cause he referenced it in the above video… then dismissed it as people not knowing what they’re talking about. Snecx, your video is good, and I understand it… problem is, a person who believes that the angle does change, will interpret it as, by not rotating the angle gauge, you’re moving the pivot down the edge (like it’s on a rail). I know that’s not the case, but am betting that’s the response. I really think Clay should contact him… since it might be beneficial to get it straight from the source… especially a source he says is wrong. I doubt he’s gonna listen to anyone else. If he actually ground a little on that steel he put in for the demo… he’d see there’s not a 6˚ difference. Oh well, time will tell I suppose………

Instead of relying on a built in angle devise, he needs to use an angle cube perpendicular to the edge. The angle not changing is fact, it’s not just theory at this point.

Here are 2 relevant posts, one from Clay verifying angles on a Laser Goniometer and the other from you Curtis, in a very practical demonstration.

Advanced alignment guide

cbwx34 wrote:

Nope, there won’t be an angle change along the straight portion, even if the knife is clamped at an angle. If you think about it, the pivot doesn’t “see parallel”… it just sees a straight line. If you need a visual, clamp a blade at an angle, then tip your whole WE until the blade is parallel (to the ground)… to the pivot it “looks” the same as if you mounted it parallel to begin with. Edit: Here’s a picture… If you clamp a blade at an angle (top photo), then rotate the WE so the blade is parallel to the table/ground (middle photo), it looks no different to the pivot then the blade mounted parallel to begin with (bottom photo).  

Advanced alignment guide

wickededge wrote:

Here’s the crude prototype/proof of concept:  In this setup, the knife tip is at 0-8 and I’ve played with pulling it out, replacing it using the guide and rechecking the alignment with a marker. It’s working great.  The knife set up looks strange so I used the clamp to hold the knife after sharpening and took measurements w/ the laser goniometer. It’s registering a solid 13° along the whole blade. Weird, but true.  The knife is made by Aura Knifeworks. The photo isn’t good but the knife is a beauty. 52100 steel with California Buckeye burl and onyx handle. Here’s a link to the knife: http://www.aurachef.com/shop/one-blue-with-onyx 

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sksharp, Mark76, Marc H

[cbwx34]

That picture was for a different test, but does support the point (man, you keep stuff better than I do haha).

This picture is what I did, when I didn’t believe it (I sent it to him too)…

… apparently, he wasn’t swayed.

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Organic, sksharp, Dwight Glass, Snecx, Mark76, Josh

[wickededge]

I added a quick comment on his video and will work tomorrow to create a 3D model, a physical model and also show him on one of our units. With the DXL360S angle gauge (thanks TCMeyer) you can show it easily without having to ensure the gauge is perpendicular to the blade. It’s much easier to show than w/ the iGauging Angle Cube. Another way to prove it easily is to create wedges that are a set angle and show that they fit between the stone and the blade all along the length of the blade.

-Clay

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cbwx34, Mark76

[Woody]

• I also added a comment to his video however I may have only embarrassed myself but hey I was honest

[Rich]

cbwx34, your demonstration is exactly what I was envisioning to prove this concept.  Your perspective of view (photo) shows that the angle relative to the blade does not change.  YES, the angle in the plane of the arm relative to to the work surface does change and I believe this is where he is confused.

snecx, your glass example is again an excellent demonstration of this angle remaining unchanged.  How can either of these be confusing or discredited??  Well done guys!

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Mark76

[cbwx34]

Rich wrote:

cbwx34, your demonstration is exactly what I was envisioning to prove this concept. Your perspective of view (photo) shows that the angle relative to the blade does not change. YES, the angle in the plane of the arm relative to to the work surface does change and I believe this is where he is confused. snecx, your glass example is again an excellent demonstration of this angle remaining unchanged. How can either of these be confusing or discredited?? Well done guys!

Thanks.  I actually came up with that when, after reading Clay’s initial post on this a few years back, I didn’t believe him, and set out to prove him wrong.  Between that and sharpening some long knives though… it’s evident what actually happens.  Probably why I’ve kept an interest in it… just like the video shows, it seems counterintuitive to what you believe will happen to the angle… until you take a close look at it.

Be interesting to see what his response to Clay will be.

[wickededge]

Snecx- that video is pretty brilliant. Unfortunately, the guy still thinks that the plane represented by the sheet of glass is imaginary and that the stone travels on some other plane… 

-Clay

[Josh]

wickededge wrote:

Snecx- that video is pretty brilliant. Unfortunately, the guy still thinks that the plane represented by the sheet of glass is imaginary and that the stone travels on some other plane…

Can’t argue with a Laser Goniometer verification…well you can, but it’s arguing with reality 

[Organic]

Humans have a hard time accepting empirical data that stand in direct opposition to intuition and preconceived notions. Thankfully, this is a case where no one is harmed by his refusal to accept that he’s wrong. Oh well.

[Author]

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