My kitchen knife edges tend to roll to left side?

Legacy Forum Archive basic-techniques-and-sharpening-strategies
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Have not been around it awhile as a few of the regulars had taught me well on the proper use of the WE system. It really takes a lot of sharpening sessions to break in the stones. Problem is who has that many knives to keep sharpening! Big difference in the clarity of my mirror edges that I like to put on my folders after I now have 75-100 sharpening sessions under my belt. And thats mostly because all my the stones are broken in very nicely now. I dread the thought of having to buy new ones at some point and start the breaking in process all over.

I initially re-profiled and sharpened my kitchen knives to what the particular brand recommended for their angles on their website. My Wustof knives have their recommended angle at 14 degrees per side for their standard blades.

My Japanese Global Knives are recommended at 10-15 degrees.

Edges came out super sharp, but tended not to last that long for sharpness and tended to roll towards left side after not that long. Then I went to 17 degrees per side and eventually they still rolled to left. Now I’m up to 20 degrees figuring this angle may hold the edge longer. I’m not even a heavy kitchen knife user, but it ticks me off when I go to use a knife I can already feel a rolled edge like a month later after freshening the edge again! I’ve tried the micro bevel route, but I prefer “slicing” sharpness over that of the better cutting ability of a micro bevel.

I’ll have to see how long this latest 20 degree angle lasts.

And what would be cause the edge to “always” roll towards the left side? Blade clamped and edge facing the ceiling.

m I going too sharp? My progression for this last knife 8 inch Global was at a new 20 degrees angle . . . 100, 200, 400, 600, 1000, 1500, 6mu. I know many just go to 600-800 or so for kitchen knives.

but I like a sharp edge. Is that why the edge its rolling so soon?

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I would guess use habits are the cause of the edge always rolling one direction. Unfortunately, knives that get used will dull either from rolling, chipping, or just general rounding of the apex from wear. With kitchen knives in particular you can slow this process by proper blade care (which I’m sure you already practice) and using a good cutting board. Switching to an end grain butcher block has had a marked impact on edge longevity with my kitchen blades.

Another answer is to use better knives. Whustof and Global knives are good compared to most other mass produced knife brands, but you can easily find knives with better blade steel and blade profiles if you are willing to invest in a quality knife from a small producer. I personally think that hand made Japanese cutlery is where its at for kitchen knives. Try something made from Aogami Super with a Rockwell in the 62-65 range and the edge will last and last with proper care.

I don’t know a ton about the steel used in the Global knives, but Whustof knives with the X50CrMOV15 are relatively soft (Rockwell 58 or so) and are designed to roll fairly easily. This allows the edge to respond well to a honing steel and to be resistant to chipping even with hard use. Knives that are harder will be prone to chipping if you accidentally hit bone or knock them on the edge of a glass bowl.

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Thanks Organic. I have wood cutting boards, but tend to cut on a paper plate for speed of not having to clean up. Yes, the roll comes right off with a honing steel, so thats why I thought the edge was too sharp or floppy. I’m sure you hit it on the head on the softness of the steel on the two brands I have now from years ago. My harder steel folders S30 and 90 V and higher never roll on me. I’ll pull my wooden cutting board back out and try that too.

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You might also try applying a little convex geometry to the edge.

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It’s also possible that you are just putting too much pressure on the edge while in contact with the cutting board. My Japanese Aritsugu chipped really bad and I came to find that it was from pushing through the very hard crust of a particular type of bread we like. When the edge hit the board, it was more like a crash. Now I cut the loaf down to the crust, then turn the loaf 90 degrees and cut through the rest of the way.

I would think that a softer steel would roll its edge under the same pressures.

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Thanks TC. I need a new board anyway. I’ve been using paper plates or a thin vinyl cutting board which might be the cause of the rolling of these softer steel knives. I’ll try out one of the knives Organic suggested too.

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This is the one that I have and it is a wonderful knife.

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ka24wa.html

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Hi Organic. The one you linked to is $270! What is you opinion of this one for $209 on Amazon:

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That looks like it would be a fine knife. It might be a bit overpriced for a VG-10 blade. If you’re thinking VG-10 is the way you want to go you can get a Yaxell Mon 210mm for about $80. I have one of these and it holds an edge pretty well. It is a bit on the heavy side of Japanese style knives and the grind isn’t mind blowing, but it shouldn’t have issues with rolling.

Two knives that come very highly recommended closer to the $200 price range are the Kohetsu knives. The Hap40 is a semi-stainless steel that is a very good performer and the Aogami Super is a reactive steel that I have come to enjoy for edge retention and ease of sharpening. Read the reviews. These knives are well loved by professionals and home cooks alike.

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/rikoaosu21gy.html

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohawagy21.html

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I looked over the info. Thanks. Is there a trade off between hardness of the steel and too hard causing micro chipping since a kitchen knife does so much chopping and rapping the edge hard on a wooden board.

Do you freshen your edges on the WE or just stropping or using a ceramic rod? Are you using whetstones since some have convex edges?

There are so many different charts for steel hardness. I see where V10 falls. But not HRC 63-64 from the same chart. I don’t see the steel hardness listed for your $270 knife in the ad.

I don’t do sushi. I’m looking for a general kitchen knife for slicing and chopping (but I don’t want a straight chopper). I was looking towards Amazon as I had some gift dollars accumulated. When I read reviews I look more at the negative reviews as the positive ones can be planted by the manufacturer or sponsored by the seller. Another member PM’d me who said he buys his from a source directly from Japan. This might be a good way to go if I can get better steel for a lower price. I’m sure any knife on Amazon is overpriced. The two you pointed me too are also exclusives to Chefknifestogo which I’m always leery of the value. I’m still pondering that first one you posted for $270. I know I should be more concerned with the blade edge but a $270 knife for me is also a kitchen show piece they could have done a bit more with that handle material for the price.

I do like that its Damascus as I mostly only buy Damascus blades when I collect folders as they tend to hold their values better (and look cool too). If I could get something similar to yours direct from Japan, then I could get a 240mm plus a smaller one for other general kitchen use and not have to use my real old Global or Wusthof knives that don’t hold an edge very long anyway.

 

 

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Expidia, IMO, I have found knives with steel harder then VG10 (HRc 60-61) enter in to the chipping realm. These harder steels besides being more difficult to sharpen tend to get more expensive with their elaborate steel formulations. These harder steels tend to chip with use, rather then just wear down and dull, and micro-chip while sharpening.

The AS steel, Organic recommends, (Aogami Super, HRc 64-65), in my personal experience, sharpens surprisingly well and easily without chipping for such a hard steel. It shares the sharpness attributes of high carbon steels and hardness of the fancy Japanese powdered tool steels. It is reactive though and tends to blacken or patina with use. It may impart a sulfur-like smell when cutting acidic foods and stain some foods black.

When I bought my first Wicked Edge, I did what you’re doing and started searching for good kitchen/chef’s knives to sharpen. That were inexpensive. I learned of the Tojiro DP brand from “Kitchen Knife Forum” and others. These Tojiro DP’s are available in all the different styles, shape and sizes common to Japanese Style Kitchen knives and at a reasonable price. They are a good choice and price point to enter into the Japanses style knives, inexpensively, to learn if you like to use them. They can be had in regular VG10 stainless and layered Damascus Style steels. Be sure what your looking at because Tojiro also produces knives in several other steels, too.

I purchased a full collection of these to round out my kitchen, to hone my kitchen knife skills and to learn how to sharpen with the Wicked Edge, all at the same time. Years later I sold off the collection to a W.E. forum participant.

The common Japanese knife styles are:

Gyuto - Chef’s knife, 210 mm or roughly 8"

Santoku - All purpose knife 170 mm or roughly 7"

Petty knife - a thin utility knife

Paring knife - same as your used to for peeling, roughly 3.5"

Then there are others for boning, slicing and cutting or chopping vegetables

These are a good quality, good fit and finish knife to get the feel for this type of knife. Without investing a whole lot. There are better more expensive knives, but bang for your buck these can’t be beat.

 

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There are a lot of factors that determine the price of a knife. Blade steel is one of them, but isn’t the be all determiner of quality or function. I might have given you the impression that it is more important than it is. The harder the steel, the more prone to chipping it will be. If you want a knife that you can use without too much fear of chipping then VG-10 is a good choice. You will rarely see it hardened to much more than 62. It will be a big step up in terms of edge retention and lack of rolling compared to your European style knives. The Tojiro DP line is a good recommendation for your first foray into Japanese style knives since they are a good value and will help you figure out what attributes you like. I’m by no means saying that you have to spend $200+ on a knife to get a good one. Its probably better idea to get a more budget friendly blade at first. You might be totally satisfied with the Yaxell that I mentioned or the Tojiros that mark recommended.

The blade grind (how thick the blade stock is, whether it is convex on the faces, flat ground, hollow ground or some more complex geometry, how much distal taper) and the profile (how much belly / how flat the cutting edge is), and finish (are the handles well made, are the spine and choil rounded, is the blade straight and evenly ground from side to side, appearance) are factors that really distinguish good knives and great knives. A lot of this comes down to personal preference, but there are several blade smiths who have gained a reputation for hitting a beautiful balance on these attributes and producing knives that consistently earn high praise. Kanehiro is one of those blade smiths and I would be willing to bet that you’d be impressed with the knife I recommended. It redefined what I thought about sharpness when I got mine. It may not suit your personal preferences because it is a more delicate blade and I have no doubt that it would chip along the edge if it were used to cut hard materials. I have a Victorinox chef knife that I use for any task where bones are going to be involved. The only reason I mentioned that knife in particular was that I personally own it and am impressed with it. I did not mean to say that it was THE knife to get. Similarly, I have had good shopping experiences with Chef Knifes to Go and I trust their recommendations.

Steve mentions the hardness in his product overview:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=57&v=JfmBdMVAdOQ [/youtube]

I strop on the WE between sharpenings. I don’t use a ceramic or steel rod on my knives, but ceramic would be the way you’ll want to go for harder knives if you don’t want to strop.

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Everyone who has chipped in gave me some great info since I’m not familiar with quality kitchen knives. I’ve also been going back and forth with Marc by email and he really knows his kitchen knives. One of his suggestions that he pointed me to was this VG10 Damascus steel Yu Kurosaki and some others too as Organic and TC did. I’m a collector of Damascus folders and once I saw this one I was smitten. With a coupon code it knocked it down to $403. Just wanted to thank all again who guided me.

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I’ve seen those as well. That line has a stunning aesthetic and Yu Kurosaki is a well respected maker. Prepare to have your world realigned.

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Thanks Organic. As I mentioned above I collect Damascus and Damasteel folders so when I saw the one I finally bought it was love at first sight asthetically!

Hopefully, it will even slice and dice up a tomato or an onion for me!

I’m still going to compare your suggested knives as now Im in the market for a 150 mm and a 120 mm to replace my Global knives that won’t hold an edge for me very long.

As you say . . . prepare to have my world re-aligned . . . as I enter the world of better quality kitchen knives.

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My edges are still rolling a few weeks after sharpening. I have it down to possibly finding by trail and error what angle to profile my Wusthof and Global knives at which would hold the edge longer. Maybe the heat treatment of these brands comes into play too?

MarcH pointed me to this thread on edge retention and various steels. I read it, but most of it was beyond my pay grade :0).

The chart attached from the article seems to point to the importance of the edge angle in edge retention. So I think I might re-profile my edges at a higher angle like above 20 degrees to see if this makes a difference with my two brands of current kitchen knives.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/06/18/maximizing-edge-retention/

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I thought the conclusion of the article as it related to edge retention and angle suggests that more acute sharpening angles correspond to better edge retention. Why would you decide after reading that to go and sharpen all of your knives more obtusely than you had been previously? Did I miss something?

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Expidia,

I’m with Organic on this topic. The research I’ve done, as well as my experience, says the lower edge angle is better for edge retention.

Not sure everyone will get this but “I’m from Missouri” when it comes to just about everything. So, if you just want to test the theory please post your experiences.

Can you post some scope pictures of the rolled edge you’re experiencing? Also, do you steel your edges?

Ed K.

 

 

 

 

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"I’m from Missouri. … Missouri, a state in middle of the US, is known as the “Show Me” state. As legend would have it, they take a stubborn pride in being skeptical, not accepting an assertion without visible proof. So the phrase in question literally means "I don’t quite believe you.

Consistently rolling edges to left, is key here. If all these knives, the Wustoff set and the Global set were too soft steel and/or improperly hardened or tempered, they may be subject to damage and/or rolled edges. But not always and consistently to the left side. The consistency, and repetitive nature and predictability of the edge failure suggests to me it is either repeated, improper sharpening technique, or repeated, consistent, misuse of these knives.

I have owned and used many Wusthof knives. Yes the steel is a softer stainless steel. It is softer, by a little bit, in comparison to other steels like the VG10 steel, (i.e., HRc 56 or 58 VS HRc 60 or 61). It is not that soft, a steel. Not, so soft as to suffer the described repeated edge roll, and, in particular to one side, only. I never once experienced a rolled sharpened edge with the eight Wusthof knives I owned, used, and sharpened. If “expidias” knife edges were failing due to steel softness the failure would be random and to one side or the other side, but more likely to both sides. The consistent nature, and the consistent same side failure suggests to me it is a failure of, or improper sharpening technique, leading to the edge roll.

I would attempt to sharpen these knives to 15 dps or 17 dps, paying attention to detail and technique, to sharpen the knives equally well on both sides. If the same results occur, that is blade roll to left, then ask a fellow W. E. sharpener to do them for you.

IMO, There is no explanation other than sharpening error or user error to explain this issue. Especially for two different brands of knives and for every knife in the two sets.

 

 

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Sorry, but I can’t think of any process or design problem that would even begin to produce these results - chisel edges excepted. It seems bizarre to think that something in the steel or in the edge geometry that would cause rolling to one side. It must be how the knife is being used and what material is being cut. Is there maybe a slight rocking of the knife to the right when the edge reaches the cutting board? I’ve been known to do this with stuff that sticks to the blade, like potatoes of cucumbers.

A while back, I was flummoxed by severe chipping of my very acute-angled Aritsugu chef’s knife. I finally came to realize that the cause was my application of high force as I broke through (think impact) a thick, hard bottom crust on a favorite artisanal bread. Soft cutting board or not, the edge couldn’t take the high forces being applied.