My thought on edge roll to the left is cutting technique. I have no doubt that Wusthof steel is softer than Japanese knives tend to be. I’m thinking that after cutting through whatever foodstuffs, the blade is then torqued/pushed to the right to separate the cut pieces from the uncut. The knife edge is either “embedded “ in the cutting “board” or dragged across it and rolls to the othe side. 2¢
Well, I try and profile to the factory angles first figuring the company knows best on what they set their angles at. I had not understood the article when I decided to go higher on the angle as I figured if I went thinner it would roll even faster. I’m not a heavy user that puts too much pressure on my knives and I do use a board.
The Japanese Globals are factory 10-15 degrees. If the 22 angle I have now still rolls than I’ll try 10 degrees as what TC pointed out from the article that the thinner the edge the better it slices and the longer it should retain the edge.
The Wusthof’s come with a 15 degree angle.
And as always thanks Organic… your input is always appreciated!
I don’t use a steel on them. I’ve sharpened all to 22 degrees now so nothing to scope a pic of until another month or two if the rolls come back. If I’m getting too much drag, then I’ll resharpen them sooner to a thinner and more acute angle than the factory angles.
Thanks for your response, Ed.
I know, thats what is so frustrating to me that I can always feel a burr like roll after a few months which is always on the right edge when in a cutting positions.
I knew I wasn’t crazy. Here is a comment on how soft the Global knive’s steel is. This is off a quote from the Edge Snobs facebook forum: “David Applewhite global are soft as shit (58HRC), so in my experience the apex will tip over if you go too aggressive on the angles 
”
And this is probably why my edge rolls so quickly. Im up to a 22 angle which seems a shame for Japanese knives which tout being so thin.
I dunno, guys. My two cents here probably isn’t worth two cents. A cheetah and a lion: which is the better cat? There is no better cat. Both are fine products of fine engineering. The observer may favor the lion’s power over the cheetah’s speed, and vice versa. So it is with knives, it seems to me. If we assume two knives are of the finest steels, then I think a Japanese knife is equally as good the German’s. Granted, they have different characteristics. Any knife edge is going to wear/chip/roll when used. All that pressure applied to the knife gets concentrated into that micron sized edge when chopping, cutting, etc. But the Wusthoff edge will roll, and the Japanese edge will chip despite the users best habits. WE has solved that problem, I think. It quickly restores any rolled/chipped edge. I simply drop back to 1000 grit, sometimes to 800, and have my edge back to lethal in less than 20 minutes. I pound a 12" Forschener, a lower tiered quality blade, stamped steel, cheap as a newspaper on a maple cross grained board. It takes a marvelous edge and holds it just fine, all things considered. Because I have my WE, I no longer worry about my Forschner. I’m free to make feta basil marinara and flood it over tortellini. Or carve up a fine buffalo sirloin, dice up some mushrooms and asparagus, and flambe’ it all in cream sherry. Don’t worry about your knives, boys, get in here, and eat! mmmmm.
Oh, uh, I do prefer the “power” of the European steel over the “speed” of Japanese steel. I like having some balanced mass in my hand. I want my blade to be tough enough to tolerate bumps and bone during handling, which comes at the price of blade hardness. But this recalls my heritage in food service. It got into my kitchen DNA very early and never bleached out. I don’t know what to say about that Wusthoff bolster. 
Keith
Thought I’d add a link to this thread which is from was another post I did today which has probably solved my edge rolling issue. Seems the answer is steeling (or ceramicing).
I was under the impression that we don’t steel a WE sharpened blade. I was not feeling a rolling edge shortly after I sharpened my kitchen knives , , , What I was feeling is a super sharp edge (felt like a burr) flopping to one side . . . seems this is normal and a few swipes with a ceramic type steel can set that edge upright again so I don’t have to re-sharpen on the WE for probably 6 months. I was just wasting the steel of the knife putting it back onto the system just to freshen the edge again so often.
Watch Marc’s link to the Jende vid and also the one I posted about touching up a knife that’s been sharpened on a WE. Also the article I linked to about choosing various steels or ceramics. I went with the Jende set that Marc’s post linked to and just picked up those Jende’s on Amazon.
https://knife.wickededgeusa.com/forums/topic/using-a-ceramic-rod-for-touch-ups/
[quote quote=49721]Thought I’d add a link to this thread which is from was another post I did today which has probably solved my edge rolling issue. Seems the answer is steeling (or ceramicing).
Watch Marc’s link to the Jende vid and also the one he posted about touching up a knife that’s been sharpened on a WE. Also the article I linked to about choosing various steels or ceramics. I went with the Jende set that Marc’s post linked to and just picked up those Jende’s on Amazon.[/quote]
Please don’t misunderstand, “expidia’s” sighting my name, posting the Youtube video on steeling and the link to Jende Industries Ceramics, in the other thread, to suggest, imply or mean I agree or suggest the use of ceramic rods for his rolled edge dilemma. I do not suggest or believe the way to go with a rolled edge is to use a ceramic rod. IMO steeling with a ceramic rod does not solve the “edge rolling issue”, it is simply a quick and easy remedy to allow for continued use of the knife until it’s next time sharpened. (To be clear: I only posted the video, to help out expidia, because he did not know how to do this, at that time.)
I do believe sharpening the knife at the proper angle with proper Wicked Edge sharpening technique and using the knife with proper knife skills on a suitable cutting board is the answer to prevent rolled knife edges. I own and have used Wusthof knives for years and never experienced edge rolling.
I understand the the Victorinox kitchen knives are made of same steel - and I got a set last month.
Yeah the steel is really soft. Wife used the 8" chef knife 4 times and it got pretty dull, won’t cut paper…
I looked at it with the Celestron scope (thank you tcmeyer) and see “waves” in the edge where it has deformed, not chipped.
I put the factory 15 degree angle back, and as you can imagine when the deformations were removed, there were small “missing areas” (look like small chips) which required more metal removal.
I am fairly new to this - and hope to confirm my understanding that a kitchen steel WILL NOT STRAIGHTEN the edge, but simply starts to remove some metal (as per the science of sharp article). I would love to learn that I could simply use a steel and push the little rolled edges back in place - but I don’t think it is that simple.
Next time this knife gets dull I will put a 20 degree micro-bevel on it.
Bob Harvey, welcome to the forum. Stating you’re new at this, how many knives have you sharpened with your Wicked Edge?
I’m pretty new - 7 knives with my model 120.
I have suffered through a Lansky and Sharpmaker, gladly spent the money for a WE and some extra stones.
I got that Victorinox 8" chef knife “serviceable” (not pretty) but getting the flaws out with 200, then 400, 600, 800, 1000. This photo was at 400 grit
I did not take the time to fully remove all prior grit scratches because I suspect I will be going to 20 degrees soon on this soft steel
Bob, you still have more sharpenings to put the stones through before they are fully broken-in. I think you’re doing yourself and your stones an injustice by not using each grit to it’s fullest before moving on to the next grit. The coarser stones are the tougher stones to break-in requiring more time. The finer grits will break-in fairly quickly. I’m not saying you should use each grit in an effort to attain a mirror polished edge. But at least put enough time and effort in to get the scratch pattern even spaced, even direction and evenly placed across the entire bevel, on each grit in your progression. Be sure your apexing the edge after drawing your burr. Besides breaking in your stones you’ll be learning good Wicked Edge sharpening technique at the same time. It’s harder to do that without putting the time in.
In the 400 grit photo, you posted, the scratch pattern is random and crisscrossed. This grit is one of the most important grits you’ll be using, going forward in your knife sharpening adventure. First, it needs to be used to get broken-in. Second, you may find by putting more effort into the knife and paying more attention to detail, that the knife may respond with a very sharp edge. The time and effort translate directly to sharpness. The sharp edge cuts with less resistance and wear on the steel and this translates to lasting longer; more durability.
Take this time as you’re getting started to hone your Wicked Edge sharpening skills and technique. The results correlate directly to time, effort and attention to detail. You may never really experience that Victorinox knife at it’s best sharpest potential without giving it your best effort, each and every time you sharpen it. Don’t short change the effort with predetermined outcomes.
Thanks - that all makes sense. I know i will get better. I am following the advice to work on inexpensive knives first, before working on me EDC’s.
Hoping to confirm my understanding that a kitchen steel WILL NOT STRAIGHTEN the edge, but simply starts to remove some metal (as per the science of sharp article). I would love to learn that I could simply use a steel and push the little rolled edges back in place – but I don’t think it is that simple.
Since you read the “Science of Sharp” article…
Read this article: “Maximizing Edge Retention” It may change your outlook on sharpening to the wider bevel angle. It some cases that may prove counterproductive to edge retention. By looking to go wider to overcome edge roll, your also starting with a wider more blunt apex requiring more force to cut and penetrate the substrate. Thus putting even more wear on the knife edge.
Bob, the Victorinox is not made of the hardest steel, to begin with. (Although, there are softer steel knives). It can be sharpened well and to a very sharp edge. Maximize what you have to work with. But don’t expect too much from it in edge longevity. No matter how you look at it . it will need to be sharpened more often then better, harder steel knives. That’s know reason not to use it and enjoy it.
It’s inexpensive, so have at it, sharpen it, use it and enjoy it. You’ll learn from sharpening it.
I’ll report back if light passes with the ceramic rods I have coming solved my issue without having to remount my kitchen knives so often back into the WE system. I should be getting months of use between sharpenings and at least with the two different sets I own I am not. Lets see how a few passes with the black ceramic does for the edge. I know Jende is trying to sell products from their videos but his video at least from the issues I’m having makes sense to me.
I digest the articles others post, but I don’t make decisions soley based on one authors findings. I prefer to develop my own conclusions from my own experience. But thats just me . . . YMMV!
What is under the paper plate?
My wooden cutting board is under the paper plate. Say I’m cutting a tomato or something else juicy . . . I use the real cheap thin paper plate (same ones I use to cover my food in microwave to catch splatters) or for fresh chicken that needs to be cut up I use the cheap paper plates with shiny finish which keeps the board dryer as I don’t cut hard into the plate. The sharpened WE edges makes this a breeze.
Ever read an article on how germy those polypropylene plastic cutting boards that I used to use harbor germs in the pores made by using it. I used to bleach it. Then I went to woood boards, But I wipe those down with diluted bleach periodically and re-oil with Boos lock mystery oil for wooden cutting boards which really helps to have the juices roll off but they can still harbor germs in the crevices when cutting meats IMO. I know restaurants use wooden blocks for cutting of course and hopefully they clean them often . . . But if you have ever read the book “Kitchen Confidential” it will give you a wake up call on restaurant kitchens! (Great expos’e on what goes on behind their kitchen doors) Sad too the author recently committed suicide, Anthony Bourdain. He had his own TV show too.
So far the two ceramic hones are working for me. I would never use a “steel” as thats just removing too much of the edge metal from my 45 minutes of effort that I used when initially re-profiling a blade and put the WE edge on. But from the articles I’ve read and videos I’ve watched the white ceramic removes a lot less than a steel and the black ceramic hone removes even less. Both do the job I was looking for which is moving the floppy edge back up making my edge very sharp again mostly with a few passes on that side and a few passes on the other. I know how floppy this edge is because after a few passes on one side I can already feel it on the other side. So a few passes on each side equally gives me that sharp edge again without having to remount and freshen up again in the WE. Hopefully, it will be like 3-6 months before enough edge is eventually removed that I’ll have to freshen the edge on the WE.
I might take some digital pics of before and after down the road, but for now using my two honing rods is working out for me. Just make sure you do the full length of the blade each time so you don’t develop a belly in the blade if you choose to try a ceramic hone between WE sharpenings. They have some inexpensive ones on Amazon too. I spent around $70 for the Jende set of two.
Here’s another installment on steeling and the effect on rolled knife edges, for those of you who care to learn the science behind the process:
https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2019/06/08/what-does-steeling-do-part-2-the-card-scraper/
Very intersting articles but let’s face it, I’m having too much fun sharpening with the WE system so steels are out of the question for me. Great info guys, thank you all!
Thanks Marc . . . just received my Shun 3 piece Premier starter set back today. They sharpened them for free with around a 2 week turnaround time.
I figured since I bought them brand new last month I was going to get 6 months to a year out of them. This was not the case. I think I was duped by an Ebay seller that claimed they were new but they couldn’t even pass the sticky thumbnail test. So rather than sharpen them myself this first time I sent them to Shun to put back on their factory edge. They came back “smok’in sharp”. Now I can take some digital pics of their edges for future reference even though I know I need to re-profile first. But I’d like to see if I can match their factory edge.
In regards to your 2nd installment on steeling a rolled edge I read the entire article. The author just like the first one gets way to deep for me as a layman.
I defer to the manufactuer as they know their edge design the best and the properties of their steels. They have great info on their website and their Youtube video shows how to steel a rolled edges when needed. They are using a “steel” by Shun and I’m using one of my two ceramic honing rods which I’m sure are less aggressive than their steel rods. They also have to warranty their blades, so I doubt they would recommend honing them if it was ripping a lot of steel off to fix a rolled edge as your links to those articles suggest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA0A_W1mDVM
For those interested, they also have a honing vid on their main site (scroll down a little after you open it). Go to: Shun.kaiusaltd.com
Their knives are made beautifully and of the VG10 Damascus steel you and Organic recommended to me.