Why water stones?

[Phil Pasteur]

Advice Please,
I already have the 5/10k. Stones. Will be adding some latter in the year, as these are a little $$$$. You guys have used them, which do you use the most? What would you advise as the best to add? I agree with all of you, they are great to work with!

James, much of the answer to that question depends on what you want to do. What results are you looking for.

Just to tell you what my choices are. I have the full set of Choseras as sold by WEPS (400, 600, 800, 1K, 2K, 3K, 5K, and 10K). I added a 5K and 15K Shapton set later, and somehow ended up with a set of 10K and 12K Naniwa Superstones. I think this was availability, I really wanted the 12K but couldn’t get it, so got the 10k SS, then added the 12K when I could get it.

Do you have the 4 levels of the ceramic WEPS stones? I will get to why I ask in a bit.
I started out using all of my Diamonds through 1000 then going “back” to the 400 Choseras and through the entire 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2K, 3K, 5K and 10 K series. This leaves a very nice, alonost scratch free bevel and great edge. When looking for my ultimate mirror, I would add the 12K SS to the mix.

Tom might tell me I am crazy. He mentions that a few of the sones are alomst duplictes of each other with the difference being whether one is better for some harder steels whenle the other better for softer steels. I was simply aiming for a full scratch free highly polished edge… time and energy no object:cheer:

As many have already mentioned, this adds a bunch of time to finishing a blade. That and the fact I would sometimes use 6 levels of strops 6, 3, 1, 0.5, 0.25, 0.125, 0.050, and 0.025 micron.. on different media… and now you are talking about 3 hours plus for a knife. This is too much time to spend, though the process is fun, relaxing, and results pretty spectacular 🙂

I think one could easily go from the 200 grit diamonds to the 400 choseras and go through the entire Chosera progression to 10K and be done with it… and have pretty amazing results!!

So back to the Ceramics. More recently I have been going through the Diamonds to 1000, using the 4 cermic grits and adding the 2K, 3K, and 5K, 10K choseras, then stropping with 1 and .5 micron diamond spray on cow leather. It works very well and takes maybe an 1.5 hours off of the full progression listed above.

If you have the 4 levels of ceramics, I would consider the 2K/3K Choseras next. If you don’t maybe the 800/1000 choseras, then at some point the 2K,3K set. The 1000 Chosera has been called the workhorse of the line. You can easily do touch ups with it fairly quickly, but it leaves a mirror edge, even at that grit, that is more impressive than the 4 cermic progression. It also removes the diamond scratches very effectively and quickly. For those that like tooth in their edge, they could likely just stop with the 1K and be very happy. If you go from the 1K to the 5K/10K you will still get a very nice finish to your bevel, but scratch removal will take a long time. You still will get a very nice edge. If a refined polished “edge of the edge” is what you want, you could increase your angle by half a degree or so for the 5K, 10K and save some time. Of course you could do the same with whatever you have now.

Anyway, after using these stones for quite awhile in different progressions, this is what I think your next move might be.

BTW, Ken, yes the waterstones take a bit more effort to use and add a very slight bit more mess to the process (when used correctly), unless I am just in a big hurry to finish a blade, this is not significant, for me anyway. As GEO said, people tend to get the wrong idea when this is mentioned… as in you need a stream of water running over the stones or something. This is just not the way it is. A few drops, with the idea of not ever having the stones drip, is all it takes.

Phil

[Ken Buzbee]

I started out using all of my Diamonds through 1000 then going “back” to the 400 Choseras and through the entire 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2K, 3K, 5K and 10 K series. This leaves a very nice, alonost scratch free bevel and great edge. When looking for my ultimate mirror, I would add the 12K SS to the mix.

That’s pretty much how I do it as well, Phil. Diamonds -> Chosera 400/600, 800/1k -> Superstone 2k/8k, 10k/12k

I won’t break out the 10/12 unless I’m after a full mirror, 8k is plenty fine enough for most of my knives. And, you’re right, unless I’m doing a full reprofile on something VERY hard,it runs around 3 hours.

The 1000 Chosera has been called the workhorse of the line. You can easily do touch ups with it fairly quickly, but it leaves a mirror edge, even at that grit, that is more impressive than the 4 cermic progression. It also removes the diamond scratches very effectively and quickly. For those that like tooth in their edge, they could likely just stop with the 1K and be very happy.

The more I use them, I’m coming to the conclusion that day in, day out, the 1k Chosera and the 2k Aotoshi are my favorite two stones to end on. I’ll bet (I should try it, then I’d KNOW 😉 ) I could run through the ceramics and just finish up on those two stones with great results.

James, I completely support what Phil told you. My rec is to add a 1k (with whatever else you want, for me it would be that 2k super stone) Having those two stones on one handle would have been a great decision, though I like and use what I have.

BTW, Ken, yes the waterstones take a bit more effort to use and add a very slight bit more mess to the process (when used correctly), unless I am just in a big hurry to finish a blade, this is not significant, for me anyway. As GEO said, people tend to get the wrong idea when this is mentioned… as in you need a stream of water running over the stones or something. This is just not the way it is. A few drops, with the idea of not ever having the stones drip, is all it takes.

Agreed, I didn’t mean to overstate either the time or the mess, but the time is about doubled and I use the water stones in the kitchen instead of on the couch in the living room. So there is impact, but it’s not life altering 😉

Just FYI, that Aotoshi takes more water than the Choseras, but it’s still not a big deal.

Ken

[cbwx34]

…as these are a little $$$$…

… unless one were to enter Leo’s Big Contest! :whistle: :woohoo:

[Phil Pasteur]

And win…

[Jende Industries]

Advice Please,
I already have the 5/10k. Stones. Will be adding some latter in the year, as these are a little $$$$. You guys have used them, which do you use the most? What would you advise as the best to add? I agree with all of you, they are great to work with!

James, much of the answer to that question depends on what you want to do. What results are you looking for.

Just to tell you what my choices are. I have the full set of Choseras as sold by WEPS (400, 600, 800, 1K, 2K, 3K, 5K, and 10K). I added a 5K and 15K Shapton set later, and somehow ended up with a set of 10K and 12K Naniwa Superstones. I think this was availability, I really wanted the 12K but couldn’t get it, so got the 10k SS, then added the 12K when I could get it.

Do you have the 4 levels of the ceramic WEPS stones? I will get to why I ask in a bit.
I started out using all of my Diamonds through 1000 then going “back” to the 400 Choseras and through the entire 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2K, 3K, 5K and 10 K series. This leaves a very nice, alonost scratch free bevel and great edge. When looking for my ultimate mirror, I would add the 12K SS to the mix.

Tom might tell me I am crazy. He mentions that a few of the sones are alomst duplictes of each other with the difference being whether one is better for some harder steels whenle the other better for softer steels. I was simply aiming for a full scratch free highly polished edge… time and energy no object:cheer:

As many have already mentioned, this adds a bunch of time to finishing a blade. That and the fact I would sometimes use 6 levels of strops 6, 3, 1, 0.5, 0.25, 0.125, 0.050, and 0.025 micron.. on different media… and now you are talking about 3 hours plus for a knife. This is too much time to spend, though the process is fun, relaxing, and results pretty spectacular 🙂

I think one could easily go from the 200 grit diamonds to the 400 choseras and go through the entire Chosera progression to 10K and be done with it… and have pretty amazing results!!

So back to the Ceramics. More recently I have been going through the Diamonds to 1000, using the 4 cermic grits and adding the 2K, 3K, and 5K, 10K choseras, then stropping with 1 and .5 micron diamond spray on cow leather. It works very well and takes maybe an 1.5 hours off of the full progression listed above.

If you have the 4 levels of ceramics, I would consider the 2K/3K Choseras next. If you don’t maybe the 800/1000 choseras, then at some point the 2K,3K set. The 1000 Chosera has been called the workhorse of the line. You can easily do touch ups with it fairly quickly, but it leaves a mirror edge, even at that grit, that is more impressive than the 4 cermic progression. It also removes the diamond scratches very effectively and quickly. For those that like tooth in their edge, they could likely just stop with the 1K and be very happy. If you go from the 1K to the 5K/10K you will still get a very nice finish to your bevel, but scratch removal will take a long time. You still will get a very nice edge. If a refined polished “edge of the edge” is what you want, you could increase your angle by half a degree or so for the 5K, 10K and save some time. Of course you could do the same with whatever you have now.

Anyway, after using these stones for quite awhile in different progressions, this is what I think your next move might be.

BTW, Ken, yes the waterstones take a bit more effort to use and add a very slight bit more mess to the process (when used correctly), unless I am just in a big hurry to finish a blade, this is not significant, for me anyway. As GEO said, people tend to get the wrong idea when this is mentioned… as in you need a stream of water running over the stones or something. This is just not the way it is. A few drops, with the idea of not ever having the stones drip, is all it takes.

Phil[/quote]

Well Said, Phillip!

When going for that ultimate mirror, IMO, it’s better not to skip, especially in the 800-1K-2K-3K-5K-10K. You can choose the 400 or 600 before the 800. You can even substitute the 400 or 600 for the 800 – but you do so at your own risk! 😆

[Jende Industries]

Advice Please,
I already have the 5/10k. Stones. Will be adding some latter in the year, as these are a little $$$$. You guys have used them, which do you use the most? What would you advise as the best to add? I agree with all of you, they are great to work with!

As Phillip said, it depends. The 800 and 1K are interchangeable, as are the 2K and 3K. 800 does jump to 2K just fine (and I have a set of paddles with the 800/2K as a great 1-2 punch), but I personally prefer the 1K to 3K over the 800-3K (I’m an OCD perfectionist, though :whistle: )

FWIW, I routinely use the 1K-3K-5K-10K over the 1K-2K-5K-10K because I like the hardness of the 3K before the softer 5K rather than having 2 “softs” (2K-5K) in a row. But for more abrasion resistant steels, having consecutive soft stones can be an advantage.

(BTW, when I say “soft”, this is in relation to the other Choseras only, not in relation other lines of stones.)

[Phil Pasteur]

Ken,

The more I use them, I’m coming to the conclusion that day in, day out, the 1k Chosera and the 2k Aotoshi are my favorite two stones to end on. I’ll bet (I should try it, then I’d KNOW 😉 ) I could run through the ceramics and just finish up on those two stones with great results..

Just curious, I don’t have the Aotoshi…”Green Brick of Joy”.. either in my bench stone selection nor on WEPS handles. Does it do something that I need in relation to the 1K chosera, or the other stones that I have available?

Where did you find it cut for the WEPS? Do you cut the stones yourself? I am always open to finding something new to try… It MIGHT be “better” !
🙂

Agreed, I didn’t mean to overstate either the time or the mess, but the time is about doubled and I use the water stones in the kitchen instead of on the couch in the living room. So there is impact, but it’s not life altering 😉

The time is more related to the extra stones in the progression.. I think, than the effort or “mess” added by using the waterstones. I guess that I have always sharpened in the same place, I have a sharpening “place” where it just works for me… with the WEPS. I have never even tried sharpening on my couch… Interesting concept though. I do have one of those sink tray things that I use with the bench waterstones. Leave the water trickling over the stone… I have to admit, I have not used that much these days… I have succomend to the precision, relative ease and moreover the efficiency, of using the WEPS..

I digress, but, I also have an EP Pro with lots of stones and plates and strops.. it too sits idle…
🙁

I probably should practice more by hand… it is easy to lose a hard won skill.

Phil

[Ken Buzbee]

Just curious, I don’t have the Aotoshi…”Green Brick of Joy”.. either in my bench stone selection nor on WEPS handles. Does it do something that I need in relation to the 1K chosera, or the other stones that I have available?

I need to get an actual green brick of joy one day 😉

The real world answer is no but there are differences. The 1k Chosera is a refined honing machine. The Aotoshi is more of a loving kiss to the bevel. You’ll see a lot more polish after the Aotoshi. If you’re going on up, it likely wouldn’t matter, but it’s a great end point on it’s own.

Where did you find it cut for the WEPS? Do you cut the stones yourself? I am always open to finding something new to try… It MIGHT be “better” !

I got them from Steven Pinson (on this forum) all mounted and nice. He does good work.

The time is more related to the extra stones in the progression..

Exactly, twice as many stones = twice as long.

I have never even tried sharpening on my couch… Interesting concept though.

Try it, you’ll like it. 😉

I probably should practice more by hand… it is easy to lose a hard won skill.

That IS true. And I’m in the same boat.

Ken

[Mark76]

I don’t have the 12K’s. Is it a noticeable improvement over the 10K Choseras? And where did you get them?

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Ken Buzbee]

I don’t have the 12K’s. Is it a noticeable improvement over the 10K Choseras? And where did you get them?

Sorry Mark, I don’t have the 10k Choseras, but used in sequence with the 10k Superstones, yes, you can see the progression (under magnification 😉 )

Is it “noticeable”? In cutting? I seriously doubt it. But it is a smoother finish, if you like that kind of thing 😉

Bottom line, if I’m doing a mirror, I use the 12k and done, no stropping. Leaves a VERY sharp edge that looks terrific.

Oh, and Steven did all my water stones, Chosera and Super.

Those Choseras are beasts! They weigh like a pound each! 😉

Ken

[Phil Pasteur]

I covered the 12K in the progression photos I did earlier in this thread. If you take a look, it is easy to see the improvement with the 12K stones. I notice that the 12K SS adds another dimension to the level of polish and reflectivity, It is a finishing stone and does not cut very much. It is definitely a polishing stone! In theory, at a sub micron grit level, it should give a bit more refinement at the edge. At Ken said, I am not sure I have noticed significant differences in using a knife after the 12K SS as compared to the 10K Chosera. I can see the difference in the scratch pattern under magnification and definitely see an increase in the reflectivity of the bevel with the 12K. If you are looking for a bevel that truly comes close to being a mirror, it is certainly worth using. In addition, for those that worry about (over) stropping rounding the edge, at around 0.9 micron grit, the 12K SS can quite effectively be used as a final abrasive in a progression.

Phil

I don’t have the 12K’s. Is it a noticeable improvement over the 10K Choseras? And where did you get them?

BTW Ken, I got my Shaptons and all of the Superstones from Steve Pinson as well. He does do very good work. I have been thinking about trying to get some of the low grit Shaptons and perhaps eliminate the diamonds, at least for applications where a bunch of metal does not need to be removed.

Mark, I am not sure how much Steve is around here these days. If you are interested, PM me and I can get you his email address.

[Mikedoh]

Or for phone number and email add, you could look at the above photo

[Phil Pasteur]

Good point…

Just trying to be helpful… but,

DUH 😳
🙂

[Geocyclist]

I have been meaning to ask this. What is the difference between “Chosera”, “Superstones” and “Shaptons” ? Are these 3 different stones?

Since I started with WE the only thing I have seen for sell by WE is Choseras (and ceramics). Did WE sell these before? Or did everyone get them 3rd party? (I did see the photo above too).

[Phil Pasteur]

They are three different types of synthetic waterstones from two different manufacturers.
The Choseras are made by Naniwa, and are their top end stones. The Superstones are also made by Naniwa. They have similar, if not the same abrasives per grit, but less of it. Or so I have read. They also are considered to be a softer stone than the Chosera line. Lots of folks really like them. The Chosera stones are 2 to 3 times the cost of the SS line.

The Shaptons are…Shapton stones. In this case the conversation is about the Shapton PRO stones cut for the weps. They also have a Glass Stone series. WEPS sold Pro stones cut for the WEPS paddles at one time, but no longer do AFAIK… You can get them from Steve or Ken Schwartz. If you look at Tom’s blog linked above and in the WIKI, he does a review of them using the WEPS. I get the idea that they are his favorites of the three. I like them for their ability to provide very uniform scratches… high precision, but grit for grit, they just don’t polish like the Naniwa stones. The PROs are pretty close to the Choseras in price… until you get to the 15K and 30K, then they are (to me) crazy expensive. The Shaptons that WEPS had were loose, without paddles and still were quite a bit more money than the Choseras mounted on paddles…grit for grit.

Of course, this is just a brief summary of the main differences. You can read for days…articles online comparing the feel, philosophy, and esoteric characteristics of the three stone types and find fanatics on all sides of claims on which are better…

Phil

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