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Why water stones?

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  • #8796
    Ken Buzbee
    Participant
    • Topics: 14
    • Replies: 393

    The one thing I’ll add to Phil’s explanation (which is spot on) is the philosophy behind each.

    In general:

    Shaptons are pure cut and leave very consistent grit true scratches

    Choseras are a balance of cut and polish and grit for grit, cut slower and polish better

    Superstones are more to the polish end. They cut very slowly and polish very well.

    Ken

    #8797
    Geocyclist
    Participant
    • Topics: 25
    • Replies: 524

    Thanks guys, good information.

    Phil, very good write up. B)

    Ken, based on what you just said how would you describe the ceramics (offered by WE). True grit? No polish?

    What does the “mud” or “slurry” or “schwarf” on the water stones do? Polish, abrade, both?

    #8798
    Ken Buzbee
    Participant
    • Topics: 14
    • Replies: 393

    Ken, based on what you just said how would you describe the ceramics (offered by WE). True grit? No polish?

    They seem to be mid way in between, like the Choseras but they don’t do either quite as well. I find Choseras cut better and polish better.

    But the ceramics are convenient and easy to use.

    What does the “mud” or “slurry” or “schwarf” on the water stones do? Polish, abrade, both?

    Mud/slurry speeds your cutting by freeing full abrasive particles so the full particle can cut, not just the exposed part. But this also means your grooves will be slightly deeper, and need more time to work out. I often start with some slurry but finish without it before moving on.

    Swarf is different/bad.

    Ken

    #8799
    Blunt Cut
    Participant
    • Topics: 0
    • Replies: 35

    What does the “mud” or “slurry” or “schwarf” on the water stones do? Polish, abrade, both?

    IMO

    mud/slurry = more polishing and much less abrasion than fixed abrasives because loose particles interact in a lapping fashion.

    swarf (super fine pieces of abraded steel & carbides) = polishing, except for VERY (0.0001%) rare large carbide pull out chunk which is undersirable (i.e. big scratchy). I wouldn’t worry about them at all just like you’re not worried about those black stuff on your strops.

    #8801
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    What does the “mud” or “slurry” or “schwarf” on the water stones do? Polish, abrade, both?

    IMO

    mud/slurry = more polishing and much less abrasion than fixed abrasives because loose particles interact in a lapping fashion.[/quote]

    This is not what my experience is. Using mud with a water stone increases its ability to abrade metal.
    Below is an excerpt form something Tom wrote in relation to a Water Stone maintenance thread. The method he describes is one fairly widely accepted to work. It supports my thoughts (and Ken’s original statement) on this. I use lots of mud on my coarser water stones to speed up material (scratch) removal. I minimize it one the fine stones… because I want a fine finish.

    Phil

    For example, a popular honing method for straights using a coticule, called the “Dilucot” method, starts off with a heavy slurry concentration and gradually adds water to dilute the concentration, thus slowing down the action so that it polishes more than it cuts, ultimately ending with stone and clean water only. With no lose abrasive, it is the least invasive abrading, which is good for finishing an edge.

    #8802
    Mikedoh
    Moderator
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 567

    Hey Phil (re phone #/ email)

    Just being a wise guy. No mean intent. Just goofing off. Embarrassed to say the number of times I couldn’t find my glasses
    till I slipped another pair on, only to realize that the pair I was looking for we’re perched on top of my head.

    #8803
    Blunt Cut
    Participant
    • Topics: 0
    • Replies: 35

    This is not what my experience is. Using mud with a water stone increases its ability to abrade metal.
    Below is an excerpt form something Tom wrote in relation to a Water Stone maintenance thread. The method he describes is one fairly widely accepted to work. It supports my thoughts (and Ken’s original statement) on this. I use lots of mud on my coarser water stones to speed up material (scratch) removal. I minimize it one the fine stones… because I want a fine finish.
    Phil

    Hi Phil,

    A moderate amt of mud in conjunction with fixed abrasives indeed would abrade & polish faster. My answer was for mud only (i.e. only loose abrasives), thus it’s lapping not? For a same grit, lapping yield finer finishes – just like stropping is one directional lapping. I don’t think we disagree, just viewing this matter at a different angle.

    #8804
    Geocyclist
    Participant
    • Topics: 25
    • Replies: 524

    I was following this almost. What is the difference between lapping and not lapping (what ever “not lapping” is called)?

    When you talk about starting with mud, exactly what does this mean? Do you wash the stone off or just quick making more?

    I start the coarse grit choseras by making mud first, rubbing the together, this lasts until the first wetting. After that it just starts to dissipate, past the 2nd or 3rd wetting it’s gone. By wetting I mean when the stones are still moist I squirt about 4 drops of water to keep them wet.

    #8805
    Blunt Cut
    Participant
    • Topics: 0
    • Replies: 35

    You can generate mud by rubbing nagura stone or small diamond plate with your stone. Soft stone gets muddy fairly fast on regular sharpening interaction.

    Because WE stones in-use are almost vertical, so mud & water have tendency to drip down. Similar to EP where stone is facing down.

    I am speaking as a freehander. I had about 6 yrs with EP, zero with WE. So my opinion in this forum are of 1/2 cent type 😉

    Pure lapping = loose particles tumble along the blade/bevel surface.

    Stropping is sort like lapping except most particles are loosely embeded, along with tumbling particles. Of course a lot depend on backing material (hard/soft <=> e.g. glass/leather).

    More about mud = binder (resin/clay/etc) + broken down abrasives. If abrasive is high friable (like Alox/SiC), it usual get broken up during the course of collision. Easy test, just create some mud, take it, put on leather and strop for a while, you’ll see the scratch pattern should be finer than the scratch from the stone directly.

    I’ve rough language skills, so please don’t mind my fumbling english.

    #8807
    Ken Buzbee
    Participant
    • Topics: 14
    • Replies: 393

    I start the coarse grit choseras by making mud first, rubbing the together, this lasts until the first wetting. After that it just starts to dissipate, past the 2nd or 3rd wetting it’s gone. By wetting I mean when the stones are still moist I squirt about 4 drops of water to keep them wet.

    Essentially what I was talking about. If I want to skip the mud cycle I just give them a quick rinse after rubbing them together. You’re there, brother!

    Ken

    #8810
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    I was following this almost. What is the difference between lapping and not lapping (what ever “not lapping” is called)?

    When you talk about starting with mud, exactly what does this mean? Do you wash the stone off or just quick making more?

    I start the coarse grit choseras by making mud first, rubbing the together, this lasts until the first wetting. After that it just starts to dissipate, past the 2nd or 3rd wetting it’s gone. By wetting I mean when the stones are still moist I squirt about 4 drops of water to keep them wet.

    I am not sure how Blunt Cut is using the word lapping. I am pretty sure it is not in the way that we typically talk about lapping to flatten a stone (or anything else), but maybe I am missing something.

    On the coarser stones, up to 1000 grit, or sometimes when I want more cutting power from it, the 2000 grit Chosera, I not only rub the stones together uner running water, but once the angles are set I use some relatively high pressure fast perpindicular strokes on the entire blade for a few minutes. This gets a fast start on removing scratches from the previous grit AND it builds a nice bit of mud. As I go to the sweeping strokes, I stop about every 20 to 25 strokes and ad a drop or two of water and mix it with the remaining mud and swarf while spreading it accross the whole stone. There is still mud on the stone after 100 strokes…if you do not put so much water on the stone that it all drips off. As you are getting close to removing the scratches from the previous grit, you might even find that you want to clean the stones before proceeding to do another 25 or so strokes, so that you can obtain the finest possible finish from them.

    Phil

    BTW Blunt Cut, here is an article that talks about lapping in the terms that define it as I use the word. Is this what you are talking about whan you write “lapping”? Just trying to define terms so that we all understand the terms in the same way.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapping

    #8811
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    Hi Phil,

    A moderate amt of mud in conjunction with fixed abrasives indeed would abrade & polish faster. My answer was for mud only (i.e. only loose abrasives), thus it’s lapping not? For a same grit, lapping yield finer finishes – just like stropping is one directional lapping. I don’t think we disagree, just viewing this matter at a different angle.

    I missed this before I wwrote the above. I guess that I was confused because we started talking about using mud on waterstones while sharpening. Certainly loose abrasives can be used for lapping. I have a glass plate with a variety of abrasives that I sprinkle on the glass for lapping different items. I have used this method for some of my bench stones, but it is pretty messy. However with the proper abrasive and a very flat surface, and a significant amount of effort, the results are outstanding. Diamond plates make this much easier, but way more expensive. I have not figured out a way to use loose abrasives for sharpening though. Anyway, now I understand how lapping got into the conversation.
    Phil

    #8812
    Xbander
    Participant
    • Topics: 1
    • Replies: 68

    * !!! THANK YOU !!! *

    For all of your work, time and information that all of you put into the WE Forum.

    #8813
    Leo James Mitchell
    Participant
    • Topics: 64
    • Replies: 687

    I will add my thanks to those who are participating in this most instructive back and forth. This is the kind of thread that adds to the knowledge of everyone. The experiences of the few is important to the many! Thanks to all who are participating and please continue. I am learning a lot here that will improve my sharpening skills.

    Cheers
    Leo

    #8817
    Mikedoh
    Moderator
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 567

    I’ve used one of the ceramic stones to flatten/level/lap my 8k super stone. I then wondered about using the ceramic with the 8K’s mud on it. I know there is some technique out there that is similar in idea.

    Anyone done this?
    Any possible harm to the ceramic?

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