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Thanks to all, a few questions…

Recent Forums Main Forum Getting Started Thanks to all, a few questions…

This topic contains 12 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  tcmeyer 01/03/2018 at 11:50 pm.

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  • #44324

    jrk
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 6

    Appreciate all the time and responses to my previous questions prior to pulling the trigger on the field and sport pro.  I’ve a few questions if I may, after using only once…so, I’m sure I’ve got a lot to learn moving forward.  I watched many videos, and read many write-ups on how to get going, tips, tricks, etc.

    Does the new vice (free floating) do a much better job at angle deviation from one side to the other?  I did the sharpie, set angle to 20 on both sides, set micro adjustments all the way in.  This proved to be great at removing sharpie evenly.  But, I’m left with a noticeable bevel difference, where the right side is taller than left.  I did my best, but again, first time using…so…

    Moved to 1000, but not sharp as I expected…very ragged paper cutting, if cutting is what you could call it.  No hair removal.

    Should I buy a angle tool?  Or, is what I’m experiencing user error?  I have read many that jump on and start using only to get fantastic results right off the bat.  This is not my experience at all.

    Set BM 940 according to Clay’s 940 vid on centering, etc.  Started with 600 as it recently came back from BM.  Thought I could feel a burr, moved to other side.  Continued until 1000 was used.

    Any thoughts/pointers on “hopefully” getting past the issues I’m seeing?

    thanks, and happy New Years….

    #44328

    Justin Fournier
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 54

    Was your bevel noticeably different from side to side before you sharpened it? If they were, and you use the sharpie method you are basically working with what you have. If you want to get into correcting problems like that, you should get a version of the angle cube, I have a few now.

    By the sounds of it your stones are new, so still breaking in. If that is the case, and your first time using the system, then it’s quite possible you didn’t get shaving sharp results, but for sure you will be able to as you improve, and the stones break in. Even with new stones though, using very light strokes to finish each grit, you will be able to get shaving sharp if you go for it.

    For the record, I got easily shaving sharp on the first use of the 1500, but can’t say that I did on the 1000 as I didn’t check.

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    #44329

    jrk
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 6

    Thanks Justin. Appreciate the response. Yes, new stones. Was hoping not have to go beyond what I have now and buy finer grits.  Not yet anyway.

    I don’t recall seeing the bevel difference prior to starting. But if the new vice eliminates lean to one side, would this have happened if both were set to same angle on angle settings?  I assume the micro angles set the same…visually…would not come into play.

    #44336

    Justin Fournier
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 54

    No need to get new stones if you don’t want to, though I only recently picked up the 1500/Glass handle set with 6 micron lapping film and I am thrilled with the results. Absolutely worth it.

    There are a couple reasons it could happen.

    First, if you check you may find the edge is not exactly centered along the center line of the knife. Or you worked one side a little more than the other, for example if you are right handed, you may have actually removed more metal from the right side creating a larger bevel than you did on the left just due to strength and dexterity differences. This is common for people who make knives for a living in factories, so consider it possible for new WE users as well. It could be that the secondary grind on the knife is actually off, and thicker on one side of the knife than the other.

    Don’t be discouraged though. You will get better results as you continue to improve your skill, break your stones in and find more and more little way to do better with it.

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    #44339

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
    • Replies: 1857

    JRK I consider and angle cube “a must”.  The angle adjustment do vary some from side to side.  For me the micro-adjustment screws rarely are in the same position when set to an equal angle, and verified with an angle cube  .  The floating vice and clamp does a very good job centering the knife but by my experience, most knives vary some in shape, grind and specifically from side to side.  The angle cube will help you to work with what you have best.

    Your technique, and lack of experience, is contributing to your results now.  As you gain experience and your stones break in your results will begin to improve and come around.  There is a definite learning curve.  It does take a while before you can do all that it takes a the same time to get even, centered, bevels, matching from side to side.  Realize your working each side separately with a probably dominate stronger side and a not dominate weaker side.  There is a tendency to due one side better than the other.  It’s going to time, patience and practice.

    When you decide what you’re into this for, that is knife sharpening.  If you really enjoy it and are looking for good quality super sharp edges that also look clear and mirror shiny. That is aesthetics, then for me, besides the angle cube, a visual aide, preferably a USB Microscope is “a second must”.  I started with a 10X lighted loupe, then got a hand magnifier or hand microscope, and finally settled on the USB Microscope with a small laptop.

    All these tools will greatly aid you to get the results after you practice.  Spend lots of time gaining experience and have been patience.

     

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

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    #44354

    jrk
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 6

    thanks again MarcH and Justin.  I’ll look into a cube…but would like to hear best place to buy and what type/brand.  As for the 1000 grit…is this capable of getting enough sharpness to shave hair…once I guess broken in a bit?  I’m fine with a few more blocks, but was hoping 1000 would do the trick…a mirror edge sounds nice, but at the moment, a simple nice sharp edge is the goal with out damaging the blade.

     

     

    #44355

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
    • Replies: 1857

    They have a good cube variety at Amazon.  This model is the best IMO.  The 1000 grit, (when broken in and used properly), followed by strops will shave you.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

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    #44360

    Justin Fournier
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 54

    I have the same model Marc linked, and a couple versions of the AccuRemote which I sometimes use to confirm the primary cube but they are not nearly as good.

    I think you can get a shaving sharp edge with the 1000s on some steels, but not necessarily all. Depending what task you are using your knife for, it might be somewhat of an artificial measure of sharpness though. My knife I used to use on cardboard won’t shave arm hair after some boxes, but it will tear through boxes like a beast. Where as a really highly stropped edge can shave clean but be more fragile with something like cardboard and after doing a few it will neither shave nor cut cardboard well.

    A good working edge for most of my folders is what is sometimes referred to as a toothy mirror. It’s diamonds to 1000, really lightly finished with set teeth, and then the arms are taken down a couple degrees and the edge is very lightly stropped a few times to bring out a little shine on the edge, but not take the teeth out. That edge done right generally will shave for me, but I have done a couple that for whatever reason the steel was not happy with it, and it refused to really shave, but still cut really well. D2 is an example of that.

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    #44373

    Pinkfloyd
    Participant
    • Topics: 21
    • Replies: 199

    I used to use the iGaging angle cube, went to a model just below what MarcH uses and i love it. Much more accurate just takes a couple seconds longer to settle out. The DXL360 here is a Link

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    #44382

    jrk
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 6

    Thanks to all. I’ll give it some more time. I still have questions in my mind about how to mitigate angle settings in the case where the knife is not true vertical in the vice. Is there good tutorial vids on troubleshooting this and how using an angle device?  I may be overthinking this, but if the knife is not true vertical, I would assume the angle settings on the arm would need to be identical to produce the correct bevel in line with the blade, but to accomplish this, the angles of the arms would need to be different on each side to accomplish this. A vid or explanation of this would help me quiet my brain a bit.

    Thanks

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    #44383

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
    • Replies: 1857

    JRK, I want to make sure I’m clear here trying to help you.  I’m going to take another try at this.

    Exactly which Vice System do you have and use?  The older WE100,WE120, or WE F&S, with the older style screw type vice where the left side is fixed, stationary while the right side moves when tightening the screws. This clamp inherently can cause a tilt to the blade.

    Or do you have the newer single level center cam action floating vice, used in WE 130, the F & S Pro, and all Gen 3’s vices. This self centers the blades and is designed to avoid causing a tilt to the clamped knife?

    In your first post that started this thread you mentioned you pulled the trigger on the F & S Pro and have used that once.  That model has the newer floating cam lever action Vice that centers the blade.  That being the case then there are only a few explanation for off center bevels.

    First and most commonly seen, the bevel can be off center where the height of the ground bevel on one side is different from the height of the ground bevel on the opposite side.  It is not uncommon to acquire a new knife where the left and right bevels were ground at uneven heights.  New knives are often hand finished/sharpened by using a belt sander/grinder.  The attention to detail in all but very expensive hand made knives is often lacking.  IMO, it is more common than not to have uneven bevels on new knives.

    Second and sometimes not realized or understood are knives that have been intentionally ground with the bevels uneven.  This is common in some chef’s knives and specialty ground knives like Scandia ground, and chisel ground to name a few.  These you would want to match the makers grind to maintain the cutting characteristics of that style knife.

    The third area I’ll mention is an uneven bevel caused by you sharpening that knife more on one side then the other side bevel.  This is common and easier to do, than not to do, for a beginning knife sharpener, irrespective of the type or method of sharpening.  I takes practice, patience, knowledge, experience and an attention to detail to get bevels that are ground or sharpened to an even size, shape and at the proper desired angle.  I would venture to say, all of us, have shared this issue, and through time, patience, practice and attention to detail using good sharpening technique may have learned to over come this.

    I made these suggestions earlier that still hold valid and applicable to your situation. So please read that again.  The last thing I’ll say is now that you recognize that this issue is there with these simple suggestions, and practice, you’ll be able to over come it.  Remember there is a learning curve to using the WEPS.  You’ve just started.  Give it some time.  It usually takes on average 8 or 10 knives to break-in new diamond stones and at least that many knives for most new users to figure out all the aspects of sharpening and to just start putting it to practice.  It’s a lot of things to keep track of all at the same time to make a perfectly even, polished, sharp, beveled knife.

    I’ve been at it for a few years know.  Every knife I clamp is still a challenge.  It has not yet become second nature.  I still have to use all my senses and patience and attention to detail to get the knife as right as I expect it to be.  That for me is part of what draws me to this.  If was easy and simple everyone would have scary sharp knives.

    Also: Please search YouTube: Using a digital angle cube   There is a hole selection of videos.

    Here’s a video by an experienced sharpener on uneven bevels worth viewing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQzBy-qKUy0

    Also subscribe to Clay Allsion channel on YouTube and view all his videos.  I’m still learning from them now!

    Also please read this post where I discuss how to take the lean out by adjusting the angle arms individually.  I don’t know if that is your issue using the new style vice but nonetheless it may help you.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

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    #44396

    jrk
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 6

    Yes thank you MarcH, I appreciate your help, and I did understand your posts, which sums up the research I have done myself.  My last post was pointed to my interest of how others may test to see if the knife is truly vert.  If not, thoughts on arm angle settings to combat this was my intention. I appreciate the links.  I’ll study these.

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    #44398

    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 33
    • Replies: 1835

    Without reading the 12 posts above, I will share how I check for verticality in FFG blades.  I have a steel straight edge which is about 0.100″ thick.  I hold this straight edge on edge against whatever part of the blade’s flat grind I can get to.  Then, with my Floureon DXL-360 (which has V-notches and magnets on all four sides) held against the straight-edge, using the V-notches, I take readings from both sides.  If they are equal and opposite, I know the blade is clamped vertically.  If they are not equal, half of the difference between them tells me how far the blade is leaning to one side or the other.  This also works when trying to achieve verticality when clamping a blade in the Tormek Small Knife adapter.

    I’ve learned to love my Gen 3 vises, but the Gen 1 vises work very well too.

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