my opinion of the super fine after 3 days with it.

[Scott]

As most who have followed my posts know I am new to WEPS but I have made a serious commitment to succeed and enjoy the process of using it. I ordered the PP2 about 8 weeks ago and took delivery about a week or so ago. I have asked a bunch of questions prior to receiving it and subsequent and as a result have continued to add to my arsenal of stones and strops since getting it. My most recent acquisition was the super fine ceramic, which I just got Friday (a couple of days ago).

I was happy with it and also unhappy with it at the same time. What I mean by that is that it definitely does bridge the gap between diamond 1000 grit and ceramic micro fine and changes the grit in a perceptible way to a more fine pattern. That is the good. What I didn’t think was great was the feel and texture of it. It sort of felt less refined than the finest diamond at 1000 grit and the very glassy smooth heavy micro fine ceramic. The super fine feels a bit soft and light like it wasn’t fully cooked in the kiln or something, at least compared with the other excellent stones I was sent.

So having said all that, I think it really does serve the intended purpose of smoothing the scratches to allow the much finer micro ceramic stone to do it’s job of polishing, but I still can’t help but wonder if the 5k/10k Chosera stone might not do the job even better or perhaps the Chosera 2000/3000 which is the next step up from the 1000 according to the grit scale.

I can’t seem to get a clear answer from anyone and just measuring grits seems to be a bit misleading because the different types of stones seem to get different results at comparable grit levels.

The problem is that I have already purchased the super fine ceramic and the only real way to find out the answer is to buy the Chosera stones. To do it right, I would need to buy both the 2000/3000 and the 5k/10k, but that is a major investment on top of what already is a gigantic expense in buying the PP2 plus all the other additional accessory stones I have bought.

For what it would cost, I could buy a new generator I have had my eye on for example or a really nice new custom knife which I can sharpen to extreme levels with what I already have.

So just to be clear, I am not complaining about the Super Fine Ceramic. It does what it says it is supposed to do, but could it be improved on IF I had bought the Choseras instead. What do you think. Again, I am pursuing this because I know others have expressed a similar interest and at least to me it is still unresolved.

[Geocyclist]

Scott, Thanks for the feedback. I was researching Chosera’s tonight and found this on site that sells different brands of Naniwa stones. This helps explains what was discussed recently about different factors in stone performance other than just grit and that grit standard is not always a simple 1,2,3 process of just follow the descending grit #’s. I.e. different stone perform differently even the tough the grit is higher or lower than other stones.

“Chosera stones are harder than the Naniwa Superstones and so take much longer to develop a hollow in use. These stones also cut faster, especially in the rougher stones — 3000 grit and larger. The 400-grit Chosera stone, for instance, works faster than the 220-grit Superstone, and is only marginally slower than the Shapton 120-grit. Normally the Chosera stones only need to have their surfaces moistened a bit with water.” From http://www.fine-tools.com/naniwa-chosera.html

[Chris]

What I didn’t think was great was the feel and texture of it. It sort of felt less refined than the finest diamond at 1000 grit and the very glassy smooth heavy micro fine ceramic. The super fine feels a bit soft and light like it wasn’t fully cooked in the kiln or something, at least compared with the other excellent stones I was sent.

That was my reaction also.

Like there should be a 1200/1600 that was like the micro’s in feel, touch and weight.
Like it’s a cheap addition or something.
Strange that we both feel that way.

edit – Notice I used quite a few “likes” in there so I don’t get slammed. 😉

[Mark]

So it works just fine, but you don’t like the “feel” of it? :huh:

[wickededge]

What I didn’t think was great was the feel and texture of it. It sort of felt less refined than the finest diamond at 1000 grit and the very glassy smooth heavy micro fine ceramic. The super fine feels a bit soft and light like it wasn’t fully cooked in the kiln or something, at least compared with the other excellent stones I was sent.

That was my reaction also.

Like there should be a 1200/1600 that was like the micro’s in feel, touch and weight.
Like it’s a cheap addition or something.
Strange that we both feel that way.

edit – Notice I used quite a few “likes” in there so I don’t get slammed. ;)[/quote]

A lot of people have that reaction, especially initially because they are so different. Over time, I think you’ll come to enjoy them. I find mine to be an indispensable tool.

-Clay

[Scott]

I agree with Clay. It definitely serves a purpose and does what it is supposed to, but it is different from what you will come to expect if you only have a 1000 diamond and a micro fine. When I think ceramic, just referring to my commonly used ceramics like dishes or sculptures or ceramic parts used for electrical applications for example, I think of very smooth, dense solid or hard surfaces. This stone is not any of that. It is, I am sure out of necessity, brought to a specific finish needed to offer the grit stage between the 1000 and the micro fine and still be durable enough to last through many uses. I would guess that this is a fine line and probably required a certain amount of compromise to find that balance.

I think it is the most cost effective solution to bridging the gap effectively. I think if you don’t mind spending a lot more money and dealing with some other issues you can get about the same results with some combination of whetstones and have that nice feel of a dense fine stone if that is what you like and I get that. At some point I may replace the super fine with the Chosera 2000/3000 and or 5k/10k, but for now the SF does the job well enough. I will be interested in it’s durability, given the more fragile appearance and texture it has. But Clay and others report that it has performed well for many knives now, so I have a high expectation and level of confidence that it will last.

[Geocyclist]

A lot of people have that reaction, especially initially because they are so different. Over time, I think you’ll come to enjoy them. I find mine to be an indispensable tool.

Clay and anyone else,

1.) For a re-profile of a factory edge what do you prefer (ceramics or chosera’s)?
2.) Minor touch up (just a little worse than strops alone can handle) what do you choose.
Major touch ups for me are like a re-profile, just less work and the angle is already set. Use a lot of stones but not the coarsest.

[wickededge]

A lot of people have that reaction, especially initially because they are so different. Over time, I think you’ll come to enjoy them. I find mine to be an indispensable tool.

Clay and anyone else,

1.) For a re-profile of a factory edge what do you prefer (ceramics or chosera’s)?
2.) Minor touch up (just a little worse than strops alone can handle) what do you choose.
Major touch ups for me are like a re-profile, just less work and the angle is already set. Use a lot of stones but not the coarsest.[/quote]

I always drop back to the diamonds for a re-profile. For touch-ups where the strops aren’t enough, I usually use ceramics.

If it’s a knife I’ve sharpened with waterstones, then I’ll use those again to touch it up.

-Clay

[Joel Fiorentini]

Scott, that was an excellent review of the Super Fine Ceramics. Clay, thank you for your insight also. I believe my decision is made that I will include the Super Fine Ceramics with the Pro-Pack II when I purchase. Now on to convince the better half why I “need” this!

[Scott]

Happy to help. Perhaps part of the confusion is actually just in the name. These stones are more fine than the 1000 grit but much less than the micro fine. I feel that the use of the word “super” might lead some to think that this is a bit more smooth and “fine” than it really is. I don’t have another stone like the Choseras mentioned to compare it to, so I may be off base here. But I think just logically, that the label could be leading some to think it will be a bit different than what they receive. Let me know what you think when you get it.

[Phil Pasteur]

If you understand the history, you better understand the naming conundrum that Clay went through.
For a few years there was nothing finer than the superfine ceramics, other than strops and much later the waterstones.

When Clay got the micron rated ceramics (from a different vendor, as he was struggling with the maker of the superfines) they were equivalent to a finer grit… Now what do you do? Change the naming of a line that has been in existence for a good while, and you hope to get back at some point (?) or figure out a new name for the finer stones??

Clay asked for suggestions, and many were made. He chose microfine. It is what it is, I think. The description of the stones is clear on the web page.

Then we have the question of how you assign a name that will be interpreted the same by everyone..
Good luck with that!

Hmmmm.
I say, read the description, search the forums, and make a decision.
All of the second guessing is pretty moot at this point.
Just my thoughts…
Phil

[Scott]

For what it’s worth, I do like it and I am happy I chose to get it.

[Geocyclist]

I am still on the fence.

I will get a PP or PPII. If I get the PP then I will also get the arms upgrade. I don’t really care about what base comes with it. I will be getting various strops and pastes, so the difference there doesn’t matter either.

The main hanging point is to get either super fine + micro ceramics or 2-3 sets of Chosera’s. I know the Chosera’s are slightly more expensive but this is not an deciding factor. But I do not want to buy both ceramics and choseras.

Most of my sharpening is Benchmade folders, s30v, CPM-M4, and 154 cm. I want to achieve polished edges to the nake eye on knives that are mostly users. I am leaning towards the chosera’s based on positive comments about feel and feedback as well as how they polish.

If I can slice/push cut phone book paper like a ninja I am happy. I would like to whittle hair one day, but I don’t see taking every edge to that level.

If anyone has both please give you opinion. Or if you only have one I would like your opinion too. 🙂

[Phil Pasteur]

Did you happen to read this thread?
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=2&id=6097&Itemid=63

If so you got my take on it. I recenly ordered the superfine and microfine stones to play with. I have not recieved them as of yet, so I can’t make a direct comparison. I can tell you that from my perspective as of now, I would not be without my Choseras… period. If you can swing it, get the 800/1000, 2000/3000 and 5K/10K stones to use after the 1000 diamonds. If you really want to spend some cash and as you said the cost is not important to you, get the 400/600 stones as well. They make quick work of the diamond scratches and set up a great transition to the 800 or 1000 stones.
Check the links that I posted to Tom’s blog. He explains it all much better than I could…or have the time to do here.

Phil

BTW. If you wait a couple of weeks for me to get the WEPS ceramics and do some sharpening with them… I will have some direct comparison impressions. You will notice that Scott asked this question…then I asked for anyone out there with the waterstones to chime in. We got two replies.

[Geocyclist]

Phil,

Thanks for the reply and link back. This helps. i think I will go with choseras. The incremental cost is not too much. 🙂

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