Bevels -terminolgy

[Leo Barr]

Is there an agreed terminology for the bevels on a knife most knives have a bevel from the spine and then often more before terminating at the micro – primary bevel?
Perhaps amongst the forum we could have a standard reference to bevels since often it gets confusing either amongst customers or even I get confused there seems for example that the main bevel from the spine is sometimes referred to as the primary bevel and then often myself included refer to the edge as the primary bevel.
I include a picture from one source but it is open to discussion .
Perhaps we could standardise the terminology perhaps Clay should have the last word on this topic.

Attachments:

• sharpen3.jpg

[cbwx34]

I agree with you… usually the Primary is the cutting edge… Back Bevel also referred to as a secondary bevel.

In most conversations though, it ends up having to be redefined or clarified. :dry:

When I get a chance, if this seems to be the consensus… I’ll add it to the Sharpening Terms page in the Wiki. 🙂

[wickededge]

Interesting topic. There is a lot of confusion about it and I’ve regularly heard or read of very knowledgeable people referring to the grind from the spine or grind line as the primary bevel. In the case of a micro-bevel, the original bevel is called the primary and the micro-bevel is called the secondary. Here is a link to a discussion on another forum about it: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/archive/index.php/t-2231.html?s=a7464a8d1e78023a89be3682e72b3871

I agree that a full glossary would be great.

-Clay

[Leo Barr]

Since you carry quite a respect I am sure even outside of WE lets try to work on a standard labelling of bevels for knives the article puts some interesting points together but clearly someone with a bit of clout needs to push it into the dictionary ideally or failing that at least amongst these forums so that we are speaking in one tongue .
I suspect this discussion needs to roll for a while and see if everyone can agree on a standard . It is often difficult explaining to someone else even on a relatively technical level in these forums when one is wondering if the other person is using the same terms and it leads to over explanation in text .

[cbwx34]

Interesting topic. There is a lot of confusion about it and I’ve regularly heard or read of very knowledgeable people referring to the grind from the spine or grind line as the primary bevel. In the case of a micro-bevel, the original bevel is called the primary and the micro-bevel is called the secondary. Here is a link to a discussion on another forum about it: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/archive/index.php/t-2231.html?s=a7464a8d1e78023a89be3682e72b3871

I agree that a full glossary would be great.

Well, the above thread you referenced, kinda confused me…. but if you go to the glosarry they created, they seemed to have settled on this…

Primary Bevel – The bevel that makes up the cutting edge. A primary bevel is sometimes a microbevel.

Secondary Bevel – The bevel closest to the spine, that isn’t the face. On Kata-Ha knives, the secondary bevel is the bevel closest to the spine that isn’t the blade road itself.

^{http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/2023-Kitchen-Knife-Glossary}

Although the whole thing says this…

Primary Bevel – The bevel that makes up the cutting edge. A primary bevel is sometimes a microbevel. NOTE: The terms ‘Primary’ and ‘Secondary’ are often reversed entirely. See Primary/Secondary Bevel Discrepancy.

(I think the Discrepancy is the thread you referenced above).

[Leo Barr]

Whom better than a premier knife sharpening forum to come up with a standard; the article rather left it open this is why WE should create the benchmark let the rest follow and how about seeing if someone can enter it into a dictionary!

[wickededge]

I like what Eamon Burke wrote:

Primary/Secondary Bevel Discrepancy
The ‘Primary/Secondary’ Discrepancy

There is a divide in the accepted nomenclature denoting the order of bevels. The terms ‘Primary Bevel’ and ‘Secondary Bevel’ are often used to mean exactly the opposite thing, depending on who you ask.

(1)
The order of bevels, as accepted by the woodworking, metalworking, and engineering trades, counts bevels in order of their deviation from the original flat plane that is altered to make a bevel(a bevel being simply any slope added to an item). So the first bevel cut into a knife is the Primary, the subsequent, wider angles, are ‘Secondary’, ‘Tertiary’, and so on, and the bevel that makes up the cutting edge can be any of these bevels. The face is not considered a bevel, as it is the plane that is being altered.

(2)
For whatever reason, either through historical convention, or logical re-evaluation, the names of bevels in the knife world are often reversed. The Primary Bevel is always the cutting edge, and the subsequent, narrower angled bevels are ‘Secondary’, ‘Tertiary’ and so on. This is likely because the cutting edge is of utmost importance in knives, and receives the most attention.

While the first usage is more widely used throughout different trades, the second usage is supported by a large section of the cutlery world, and promoted by some of the most well-known and respected members of the knife sharpening elite. Due to the widespread implementation of the second method in the knife world, neither method is wrong(usage determines meaning, eventually), but due to the fact that there is never a clear cut consensus on which is “correct”, and the first usage being constantly imported from other trades, this is not likely a debate rested any time soon.

– Source: kitchenknifeforums.com

-Clay

[wickededge]

I like what Eamon Burke wrote:

Primary/Secondary Bevel Discrepancy
The ‘Primary/Secondary’ Discrepancy

There is a divide in the accepted nomenclature denoting the order of bevels. The terms ‘Primary Bevel’ and ‘Secondary Bevel’ are often used to mean exactly the opposite thing, depending on who you ask.

(1)
The order of bevels, as accepted by the woodworking, metalworking, and engineering trades, counts bevels in order of their deviation from the original flat plane that is altered to make a bevel(a bevel being simply any slope added to an item). So the first bevel cut into a knife is the Primary, the subsequent, wider angles, are ‘Secondary’, ‘Tertiary’, and so on, and the bevel that makes up the cutting edge can be any of these bevels. The face is not considered a bevel, as it is the plane that is being altered.

(2)
For whatever reason, either through historical convention, or logical re-evaluation, the names of bevels in the knife world are often reversed. The Primary Bevel is always the cutting edge, and the subsequent, narrower angled bevels are ‘Secondary’, ‘Tertiary’ and so on. This is likely because the cutting edge is of utmost importance in knives, and receives the most attention.

While the first usage is more widely used throughout different trades, the second usage is supported by a large section of the cutlery world, and promoted by some of the most well-known and respected members of the knife sharpening elite. Due to the widespread implementation of the second method in the knife world, neither method is wrong(usage determines meaning, eventually), but due to the fact that there is never a clear cut consensus on which is “correct”, and the first usage being constantly imported from other trades, this is not likely a debate rested any time soon.

– Source: kitchenknifeforums.com[/quote]

Still, it seems silly that knife makers and knife users/sharpeners would be talking about entirely different portions of the blade while using the same term…

-Clay

[cbwx34]

Seems even the “experts” don’t agree…

^{Razor Edge Book of Sharpening – Juranitch}

^{Bladesmithing with Murray Carter}

BUT….

^{Sharpening Made Easy – Bottorff}

If you do search for primary bevel definition, you’ll find multiple thread in various forums where they go back and forth on this. In one example, they go further and actually separate the microbevel out…

^{http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?45101-Primary-edge-or-micro-bevel/page2}

:silly:

Attachments:

• REBook.jpg
• MCBook.jpg
• SMEBook.jpg
• SpydercoBevel.jpg

[Mark76]

Really nice subject.

Being Dutch, I didn’t know what primary and secondary bevels are before I started reading about sharpening. Since I learned it from Clay, I now use his interpretation.

There is another term I read all the time, but of which I am not really sure what it means. What is the grind of a blade? Since the part of the blade I sometimes grind is its bevel, I assumed it said something about the bevel. But apparently, at least with kitchen knives, people use this term to refer to how everything of the blade, with the exception of the bevel. The part that in Curtis’ pictures above is called the blade or the blade flat. Is this a common interpretation or again an interpretation just a group of people use?

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Ken Buzbee]

What is the grind of a blade?…

But apparently, at least with kitchen knives, people use this term to refer to how everything of the blade, with the exception of the bevel. The part that in Curtis’ pictures above is called the blade or the blade flat. Is this a common interpretation or again an interpretation just a group of people use?

I think this is a very common usage, Mark. I refer to the “grind” as the overall (vertical?) shape of the blade, as in Full Flat Grind, Saber Grind, High Hollow Grind, Scandi Grind etc. (as opposed to the (horizontal?) shape of the blade: clip point, drop point, recurve, hawk, etc)

For bevels, I use micro->primary->back bevel starting at the edge. I find the term secondary confusing.

Ken

[cbwx34]

I think Mark and Ken hit on another point… referring to the grind style or type adds to the mix. I thumbed thru a couple of books on knifemaking last night. In Blade’s “Guide to Making Knives” (a compilation from different makers), I couldn’t find any reference to primary/secondary… but a bit of reference to what Mark and Ken said…creating the knife’s grind type. Wayne Goddard’s “The Wonder of Knifemaking” has a section on sharpening… he refers to the “higher angle” as the “primary sharpening angle”…

“A secondary sharpening angle of around 10 degrees will remove the shoulder and allow the primary sharpening angle of 15 degrees to be effective (p. 126)

… but then, one page later in writing about chisel grinds, he writes…

Some are true chisel edge and some have the secondary sharpening angle. (p. 127)

… which (to me anyway), seems to be a distinction between the grind style, and then adding a secondary “sharpening” bevel to that.

Then, this morning I remembered that Clay has a page on creating a Double Bevel… where he just refers to them as “back bevel” and “edge bevel”…

To create a double bevel using the Wicked Edgeâ„¢, it’s easiest to create the back bevel first and then the edge bevel. Start by selecting the angle of the back bevel and working both sides of the blade until the back bevel reaches the edge. Progress through the stones to polish the blade as much as possible. Then move the collars out to the desired angle for your edge bevel. You can start with the 600 grit fine stones or even the 800 grit extra-fine stones. The edge bevel does not need to be large in order to be effective at improving durability.

Like Ken said… maybe we should just aim for something less confusing?

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