Why water stones?

Legacy Forum Archive abrasives
1

I just recently became a devotee of self sharpening a couple of months ago. Before that, I thought only experts could sharpen my knives because there was such a dizzying array of methods and materials by which it could be done and until somewhat recently, it was all done freehand by craftsmen who probably learned at the hand of other experienced craftsmen.

Enter guided systems like WE (and others) which made expert results obtainable by inexperienced, unskilled knife collectors or someone with a collection of dull kitchen knives which is what got me started. So now I have bought into this WE system and decided to get a PP2. The PP2 was put together at a time when the 1200-1600 ceramic stone was not available due to some production problems (which now seem to have been resolved). This left a gap in the progression of abrasives between the 1000 grit diamond stone and the next available micro fine ceramic stone which shipped as part of the PP2.

Because of that gap, I began to consider the available options including the Chosera water stones made for the Wicked Edge guided rod system. The 2000-3000 and 5000 -10000 sets would very capably fill that gap but going from the proprietary (easy to use) WE stones to the Japanese water stones was messy and the stones have different dimensions making it more complicated to set the bevel etc.

However, having said all that, I have noticed among some here in this forum, there is a preference for using the water stones and I could not help but wonder why. So I would love to hear from those who prefer and use the water stones or who are considering buying them or perhaps you bought them to fill the gap and no longer use them because the 1200-1600 ceramic stone is now available. I would appreciate it if you could share your thoughts and experiences. What do you like about them? Do you regret getting them or if you did would you never consider using the diamond and ceramics. Perhaps you only use water stones, would you also get some of the diamond or ceramics now to supplement your water stones?

I know there is a different feedback and user experience with water stones , but to my untrained eye, you seem to be able to obtain about the same results with the dry, easier to use diamond and ceramic stones, or am I missing something? I am guessing that some here only used water stones freehand before the guided rods were introduced and liked being able to use them with the new rod system and just stuck with the water stones. If so, what is your feelings about diamond and ceramic stones vs water stones?

Thanks for your feedback and insight I am hoping others here are also curious and may learn something here.

2

This is a very good question, Scott…and it’s something I’ve wondered myself? And given that I’ve already stepped into the world of Wet Stones; Naniwa Super Stone 2K & 5K, and Shaptons 8K and 12K,I have my opinions, yet want to hear about their experiences before I share my novice thoughts on the matter. Regardless I’ll be curious to hear what our panel of experts have to say on this subject.

Well at least let me share why I jumped into the Wet Stones arena. After spending hundreds of hours learning to re-profile blades, to determine correct angles, deciding when to cut and use bevels, and general “burr” theory…I still couldn’t get the polish and shine off my blades like in any of the YouTube videos. Don’t get me wrong, the knives I sharpened were wickedly sharp, but they lacked the shiny sparkle everyone else was achieving. That led me the Wet Stones and this is were I give credit to Steve Pinson of Better Edge and Knive Sharpening Systems for imparting his knowledge on the particulars of these stone type systems. So I’ve experimented with both stones on basic kitchen knives and I’m amazed at the results (more on that later). They were expensive, and I’m glad I bought them, but I’m still learning on them to develop my technique…so this is where I stand for the moment and I’m getting better with them as I polish and practice more.

…Now let’me go get the popcorn ready!

3

Daug,

C’mon share. Do you only use whetstones or is it part of your collection that includes diamonds and or ceramics? Do you find that having to keep them wet and deal with slurries and mud is more trouble than it’s worth? Or, do you enjoy the experience kind of like pottery workers moulding wet clay into some sort of usable end product?

I suspect, but don’t know, if it’s the actual hands on experience in which you have to balance moisture and some minor chemistry with the tactile feel of sharpening that makes it attractive to some.

4

One thing I can say in regard to the Chosera stones…for those who must have a bright and mirror-like surface to their edges, these stones excel. I don’t find them too messy(my wife does) and there is a different feel and sound to the sharpening process…I haven’t twigged onto those yet as I have with the diamonds, but I shall soldier on until my ear and my hand/touch are sensitive enough to tell me when I should move on to the next set of stones.
Having said all that, the difference in the keenness of the edge is slight but perceptible. Are they an absolute necessity…if you are a molecule polisher, yes. They are good to have at hand to add another dimension to your work for me at least.

Cheers
Leo

5

Leo,
Thanks for responding. I know what you mean about the sound and tactile feedback being important. I have dabbled in some more artistic endeavors with some minor success in the past and like any artistic thing we do, incorporating your natural senses, in this case touch, sight, and hearing is an important element of bringing the art together. I have frequently heard that knife sharpening is an art, so why would it be different?

I actually enjoy the tactile and auditory feedback of the different stones as you progress to the finer grits. So it makes sense that some would like the whetstones more for the feel and experience despite the maintenance and cleanup and so forth.

6

Scott,

I use the combo of Diamond and Wet Stone to achieve my desired results. I purchased the PP1 system and the Diamond plates are fast and efficient for re-profiling and I usually progress from 100 - 400 grit for “burr” development, then 600 - 1K grit for general blade sharpening.

Note that my wet stones are cut to shape and attached to blank WE platens so they fit my PP1 rod assembly perfectly. So no separate wet stone / water setup. I’ve used it dry and wet, with best results in the wet mode. I keep a spray bottle of water to the side of my setup to keep the stones wet during progressive stokes. The slurry that develops is what helps with the polishing and sharpening, and the mess is kept to a minimum. As for cleaning, rubbing the platens together helps keep the stones clean when I put them away, but always note to only rub like for like stones together only.

As for the progression, and this is a work in progress;

  1. Diamond plate 100 (as necessary) - 400 burr development
  2. Diamond plate 600 - 1K sharpmening
  3. Naniwa Super Stones 2K - progression
  4. Balsa Strope - 3.5 uM (green) Polishing
  5. Naniwa SStone 5K - Polishing
  6. Shapton 8K - 12K Polishing (optional)

From what Steve indicated stropping would not be necessary when going through the SStone progression, and maybe it’s due in part to the play in my PP1 arms, but it’s still not reflexive enough for me. So I find it necessary to strope the blade to get that level of shine as necessary.

The Shapton’s polish like crazy, and sometimes I’ll still strope with the 3.5 uM in the end to get that extreme shine and cut that I like.

The blade is both durable and polished for my needs and I can achieve it at minimal cost without going to the ceramics.

Just my $0.02 from experience.

7

http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=2&id=6097&limit=10&limitstart=10&Itemid=63

Post 6103. I said most of what I think on the topic, But maybe I can expand on it a little.

When I got my WEPS all I could get in the way of stones was the stock diamonds up to 600 grit. It took me 4 or 5 months to get the 800/1000 paddles. I couldn’t get the level of refinement that I wanted with only the 600 grit diamond as the finest grit that I had. I tried lots of things including sandpapers taped to the 600 grit stones, 3M lapping films from 12 down to 0.3 micron, lots of stropping materials such as Semichrome and Mothers Mag wheel polishes in different grades…I even bought three complete horse butts and made my own strops. None of it really got me to where I wanted to be in my sharpening pusuit, and all of it was lots of additional work to actually use.

Now I have been sharpening since I was about 8 years old, some 55 years ago. I had tried many systems and types of stones in hand sharpening, At one point I started researching water stones. Always trying to do things on the cheap, I ended up buying a set of Norton synthetic water stones from around 250 grit up to 8000. Then I got a Chinese mystery natural stone that is supposed to be in the 9000 to 13,000 grit range. Then I splurged and spent over $100 (GASP, I bet Ken Schwartz or Tom will really laugh if the read this) on a Japanese synthetic stone at 10K. Well I was amazed at how much better I was getting my edges …by hand.

So when I got turned off by all of my attempts to get more refinement on the WEPS with what I had on hand, it was an easy decision to try the Chosera Stones for the WEPS. I started with the 400/600 and 800/1000 stone sets. I was really amazed at the improvement over just the Diamonds to 600. I loved the feel, the cutting speed and the results at the edge. A few months later I sprang for the 2000/3000 set. More improvement..WOW. Finally, after struggling for a few months to justify the cost, I bought the 5000/10K set. Well, I finally got real close to my perfect mirror edge and as Clay has said, at the 1.76 micron grit level of the 10K Chosera, a very nice functional edge for either push cutting or slicing.

Now, I haven’t tried the WEPS ceramics yet, but I just ordered the two sets. I will comment more on that as I get some experience with them. From what I have read and the known polishing characteristics of the Naniwa Chosera stones, I kind of doubt I will get as pretty of an edge. As cutting is where it is at though, who knows, I may like them better for certain applications.

As I do some sharpening for pay, possibly the time saved with not having to deal with the water may make up for the potential lowered reflectivity. I will tell you that I can’t imagine me using anything other than the Choseras (from the selection I have, which includes a 5K and 15K Shapton set and a set with 10K/12K Naniwa Superstones) When I want a beautiful yet very sharp edge on one of my safe queen/display knives.

Bottom line is that there are lots of ways to get a knife sharp. There are different levels of sharpness or edge tooth for different applications. To get there easily you need different tools. I think that the Chosera stones have a great fit in that tool kit, and I have not found anything else that gets me to as pretty and scratch free an edge, as fast, as these stones. The minor amount of additional work involved in using them in no way deters me from using them at every sharpening session. If the pursuit is for perfection, what is an extra few minutes out of an hour or two of sharpening time? Cleanup, just a damp sponge run over the base of my WEPS when changing stones.

I too am curious, how many people out there have the full set of Choseras, or any subset, and what do you think about the results that you get with them?

Phil

8

What would be the result of using a 5k/10k set of stones after the micro fine ceramic? Would it produce a more glossy mirror finish or would it not result in an improvement. It looks like the grit of the 10k Chosera is about the same as the fine side of the micro ceramic but as has been mentioned before, the grit comparison is not always an accurate way of determining the result of one stone to another.

Also as a side question a bit off topic. I noticed in an old thread on this forum, WE used to sell Shapton stones about 8 months or so ago, but today they appear nowhere on the site and even discussions of them are mostly found in older threads. I went to the Jende site and found that they have the 30k stone not mounted on a WEPS paddle for $400, so a wild guess would be that they were not selling because of the cost. Or is it that you can do the same thing with Chosera for a good deal less cash lay out?

9

Hi Phil
I have a complete set and from time to time I do a complete knife after raising a burr with the 100/200 grit paddles. I don’t use the complete set often because of the more extensive setup and I am a lazy sharpener… besides I usually get that look from my wife which says, Make it quick and clean up after yourself. You see I work at the kitchen table so my total rig gets in the way even though the huge table I built out of oak is 40 inches long by 35inches wide by 1.5 inches thick. I seem to spread out so there is no room for anyone else. Still I wouldn’t be without them. Sometimes I just do everything with the original WEPS and use the final two finest stones to finish up before I use the strops.

Leo

10

First, I’m a die hard water stone guy. All my life I have sharpened by hand on a number of 3x8 stones. On my WEPS i have handles starting at 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5K, 8K, 10K (several brands), 12K, and 15K. I like most will start on the diamonds to start a burr and them go right into the wet stones. Yes you have to keep them wet. Yes they are messy, no getting around that. You have to have an angle cube. Most of my stones are custom make and yes it takes a while to set the angles but you get used to it. The benefits, you will get a gorgeous mirror finish. Yes yu can still strop and I do on 3 x11 sheets of leather, balsa at various grits and nano cloth on glass. At that point it becomes a work of art. Do I do this for all the knives I sharpen? No way but if the client wants a very sturdy edge with a little tooth and a shiny mirror bevel to the naked eye I can do that.

11

Why do you strop between stones?

12

You can get the shapton stones directly from Ken Schwartz. They are quite expensive, even significantly more money than the Choseras, which are not cheap in their own right.
I would be that what you saw on Tom’t site is the 30 K Shapton bench stone.
First someone has to buy the bench stone, then cut it, then mount it on paddles. You can easily see where it gets real pricey.

As I said, I don’t have the ceramics yet. I can’t say exactly. but I think you will get more polish out of the 10K chosera stone, even though at 1.76 micron its grit is larger than the finest ceramic. The only way to know for sure is pick up a set and give it a try :slight_smile:

Phil

13

[quote quote=“Geocyclist” post=6242][quote quote=“DAUG” post=6234]
As for the progression, and this is a work in progress;

  1. Diamond plate 100 (as necessary) - 400 burr development
  2. Diamond plate 600 - 1K sharpmening
  3. Naniwa Super Stones 2K - progression
  4. Balsa Strope - 3.5 uM (green) Polishing
  5. Naniwa SStone 5K - Polishing
  6. Shapton 8K - 12K Polishing (optional)
    [/quote]

Why do you strop between stones?[/quote]

Geocyclist,

Based on the WE Grit Comparison Chart;

http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74:grits-comparison-chart-for-the-wicked-edge-sharpener&catid=31:general&Itemid=46

I strope between the Naniwa stones because of the 3.5uM (Green) size falls in between the 2K and 5K micron size. At 5K - 12K grit size you are already polishing, so stropping becomes unnecessary, although you can always choose to do so to get the desired affect. Also note that I’m limited in my uM sizing (strope wise), since I don’t have anything smaller than 3.5uM. Although I’ve been considering some diamond sprays, the kangaroo paddles, and the PP2 upgrade, etc. for the next purchase. What stops me from doing it right now is my desire to balance my want of a mirror finish with the economic need for good enough, and good enough is winning at the moment.

14

Daug, that was my first guess is you were going by grit size. I have looked at the grit comparison chart and see that stopping does more polishing than anything. I was wondering if you “undo” the polish you get after the first stropping with stones but if the next stone is fine enough then I guess not. I had always thought you “finish” with strops and don’t go back to stones.

15

Just got my angle cube. How close does the angle need to be? Spot on? +/- .1? It seems to shift a bit. Hard to nail “spot on”

Ken

16

I experimented by doing both a stropping in between the 2K - 5K progression and after the 8K - 12K progression and found no difference in reflectivity and shine. Granted I did not continue stropping past 40 strokes just to see the final results of each…end result, no difference. Though I would suspect that if I spent more time on the final stropping process that it would shine up nicely with either progression.

Conclusion, it’s shiny enough for my needs and the edges are wickedly sharp at this point that progressing to smaller uM I’ve reserve for those very special knives. For functional knives, like my everyday kitchen knives, no further progression past the 3.5uM stropping is necessary.

17

I agree that it is typical to strop when you are done with your stone progression. Stropping does different things to the blade independent of the grit size in use. We have seen the the photos, but even more it is intuitive that there will be a bit of convexing of the bevel(not rounding the edge) happening when stropping due to the give in the media. When you go back to the stones you basically remove that,to get back to a flat bevel all of the way to the edge.
It seems a bit couterproductive, doesn’t it? I often go out to the 12K SS which is at about a micron then back to 6 and 3 micron strops (DMT diamond paste) because I like the edge that I get better for many daily use tasks. This probably adds a little micro scratching, but at a macro level the edge is still very mirror like.

Having said that, there is no wrong way to sharpen as long as you are ending up where you want to be.
There can be qautified, by number of strokes required, the more efficient way to get to the same point.
Having to create and then remove a convex micro bevel, likely is not the most efficient way to go.
Also remember, grit size is only one component of what happens when you use abrasives on steel. Often , at least whe using grits sized fairly close together, it is not the most important factor to your results.

Daug try going through your stone progression sometime then going "back’ to your strops. See what you think, and please let us know how it goes.

Phil

18

Philip,

I will do just that shortly with some practice knives today and I’ll report back when I’ve completed it…and thanks for the suggestion!

19

Phil makes some nice points. There is also a fair argument to be made for using different tools and techniques to shorten the path to removing scratches, and sometimes shaping the bevel at very slightly differing angles can help. The scratches you’re trying to remove have a specific depth and the goal is to eventually get to the bottom of the deepest ones, hopefully by abrading away the ridges until you get to the “valley floor.” Using a crosshatch pattern works well because you can attack the ridges from their cross sections, which is good because you have less metal to push and the apex of the ridges is more fragile. A similar affect can be achieved along the length of the ridge if you create some faceting or even a slight curvature, which the strops will do. It’s like sawing a log; after the first bit of progress through the cut, the blade has to cut through ever more material and it’s helpful to change the angle of attack slightly, lessening the contact area and creating a new vertex within the length of the cut. Changing the angle again makes it easy to focus all the force of the teeth on the new vertex and you quickly reduce it while also creating two new vertices, which are then easier to attack. I found using this technique is often helpful in getting to the “valley floor” more quickly. Incidentally, I found that taking advantage of the slight play in the old arms was helpful in the same way because I could easily change the angle of attack by adjusting where on the stones I was putting pressure. Once I’d gotten to the proper depth, I’d just change my stone holding technique back to applying pressure consistently and I’d have a nicely polished, flat bevel.

20

[quote quote=“DAUG” post=6267]Philip,

I will do just that shortly with some practice knives today and I’ll report back when I’ve completed it…and thanks for the suggestion!

[quote quote=“PhilipPasteur” post=6266] …

Daug try going through your stone progression sometime then going "back’ to your strops. See what you think, and please let us know how it goes.

Phil
[/quote][/quote]

Ok, just completed several practice knives (Butcher knife and Machete) this weekend to see if I can answer some of the question posed by Phil. First off my goal was not only to functionally sharpen these knives, but to see if I could get them to a polished finished without stropping, and then to try it with a final stropping step. Here’s the summation of the progression for the knives that where sharpened:

The 1st progression would be going from, 1) → 2)
The 2nd progression would go from, 1) → 3)
The 3rd progression would go from, 1) → 2) → 4)
The 4th progression would go from, 1) → 3) → 4)

  1. Diamond Plate;
    100 - general profiling, burr development
    200 - burr development
    400 - progression
    600 - progression
    800 - progression
    1K - final progression, dull scratched finish, but otherwise very sharp at this point

  2. Wet Stone I; custom platen
    2K - Naniwa Super Stone, polishing
    5K - Naniwa Super Stone, polishing

  3. Wet Stone II; custom platen
    8000 - Shaptons, polishing
    12000 - Shaptons, polishing

  4. Strop; Balsa wood paddle
    5um - Diamond paste, final polishing
    3.5 - Diamond paste, final polishing

I did not take pictures during this process, and I’m sure it would have been helpful when describing these finishes, but hey…I don’t even know how to attached them to this thread yet. So will have to do it next time once I’ve learned how.

Progression through the diamond plates were routine from re-profiling, then cutting, and final sharpening took no time at all. Progression through the diamond plates took no more than 45 min. at most to complete. My diamond plates, I can say, are well broken in by now with the resultant edges as wickedly sharp and toothy at this point.

The progressions through the Naniwa wet stones [2] was done wet, and more importantly the development of a black slurry was imperative for the polishing process. Amazingly enough, I think at this point the Naniwa stones finally did break in after 10 min. of wetting and slurry making, and I was able to polish the first knife’s edge (Butcher knife) to a beautiful smooth shine at the 2K grit. There were areas that were cloudy at first, but adjusting the angles made quick work of those dull areas when I first wiped off the slurry, but with each passing stoke it was getting brighter and shiner than I’ve ever gotten them before. Mind you this is even without the stropping process. The 5K wet stone was done the same way; wet it down, develop a slurry, and polish lightly or with pressure (as you see fit) to finally get at the deeper scratches. Shine was all there, and no stropping required.

The progression through the Shapton wet stone [3] was done the same way as [2]; wet the stone, develop a slurry, and polish away. It took 2-3x longer to get a polish shine on the Machete blade and I attribute this more to the jump required to go from the 1K diamond plate then to the 8K wet stones ability to remove the deep scratched that the 1K plates left behind. When it finally shined, the shine was pretty bright with the Shaptons and it was a lot smoother in final finish with less scratches than the Naniwa’s, but overall the Naniwa’s cut very quickly and effectively throughout this experiment.

I was very pleased with both stones in terms of the end state of the blades being polished. The Naniwa’s are quicker in terms of cutting power for sure, but the shine of the Shapton’s are definitely less scratchy (as I would expect).

Then finally went to the stropping stage [4] for both blades, and I’ve got to say that it definitely is not required at this point, since both blades were extremely sharp, and both very polished…but for the sake of this experiment I continued. Stropping with the 5 um balsa paddle did scratch up the finished shines of both blades. Progressing to the 3.5um diamond paste made both blades scary sharp, but it took quite a bit of time to smooth out the scratches. When it was finally done, it was shiny again and now much more scary sharp than before.

Conclusion: Bottom line the wet stones themselves will work to get me the sharpest edge and polish that I want. Stropping at some of these grit level does not seem necessary, but it does look to me like I don’t have enough stropping range to make a conclusive argument to strop or not to strop further. The same can be said of each stone brand in my kit. I don’t have enough of either the Naniwa or Shaptons to say conclusively which is best, but each provides enough range to progress with polishing and sharpening to my desired affect.

So am I done, no not really…I would love to get more range of Naniwa stones for sure after this rest. but the Shapton’s make me curious what it would be like to have the lower grits to progress through. Then ultimately, I would like to experiment with stropping with the Kangaroo leather with smaller grit sizes to see the final affect. But for now at least I know I have the materials to get that polished look that I’m looking for.

This experiment was fun, but it took a long time to get here…but more importantly I learned a lot of things about the capability of the WEPS PP1 system and it made me proud to own one.