Nice writeup… I like the way you documented it.
I’m curious why you didn’t consider doing a progression thru the Naniwas and Shaptons… a 1-> 2-> 3 before (or without) stropping? Seems that with the grit levels you have in each, this would be a natural progression.
…because in post #6234 of this thread, I do use it as my natural progression that I go through (sometimes with stropping, most times without), so I didn’t see the need to re-do that task again. Besides, I do state in my conclusion that I do have the range of grit size from 2k - 12k, to complete the polishing task, but I would still be curious to find out how any blade would turn out with just exclusively Naniwa’s and/or Shapton’s. Regardless the expense to do that would require me to save up some…but at least I know my current grit range will be enough for my needs.
Ahhhh… thanks… didn’t catch your earlier post.
I have another question regarding all this polishing and burnishing. I must qualify my question by saying that I am still in the very early stages of learning how to most effectively use my full set of stones.
I was finally able to get a very polished edge using my ceramics without even going to the leathers. What I mean by “very polished” is that without looking at the knife edge (shoulder) under magnification, I can put the knife edge on a piece of paper at an angle that allows me to see printed words in the reflection (on the shoulder of the edge) quite clearly. To the uninitiated, it looks for all the world like a mirror. Now, I know that under microscopic examination, there are scratches, but in practical terms, it is very, very polished and reflective.
Also, it only takes a few uses before visible scratching occurs and it needs to be worked on again to bring it back to the visibly clear unscratched finish. So this scratch free finish on my knife is a bit fragile at this point (I am using a s30v blade for reference)
I think my knives look beautiful with the mirror finish I have achieved and I totally get the pursuit of the mirror finish. But I am wondering if some of this conversation is driven by pursuit of a finish that can only be appreciated under extreme microscopic examination, or are you needing all the very high grit stones or very low grit pastes and sprays to get to an acceptable mirror finish (acceptable meaning visibly mirror like reflectivity as seen by the unaided naked eye) or are you seeking microscopic perfection.
Also, I find it interesting that when I achieve that mirror smooth finish and lightly run my finger or finger nail along the edge, it is also perfectly smooth to my touch. So it is not just the shoulder that is smooth and shiny, but the edge too. A very different cutting edge and one might argue not as practical in real world knife cutting terms.
I am in no way criticizing anyone trying to get to a “perfect edge”. I get it. I am also trying to perfect my technique and appreciate all the great dialogue here. I’m just wondering if you folks are not able to get to the shiny mirror finish without using all these whetstones and extreme micro grit polishing sprays or are you seeking something more like a perfect mirror finish only detectible under a microscope? I guess what might be more accurately described as a scientifically perfect edge.
I can’t answer for anyone save myself. When I indulge my OCD (more of a rarity recently), I am aiming for that scientificaly perfect edge. The thinest edge that the steel will support, and no visible scratches under high magnification (Clay has gotten some blades so smooth that scratches are not detectable with 800X. That would do for me…)
Of course this kind of edge is not practical for most uses that a knife would be employed for in real life. It is typically fragile, and, as you noted, takes very little use before it becomes scratched.
In this case, the goal is simply being able to get there. The more you get into smaller and smaller abrasives, the more the laws of diminishing returns applies. Many times the cost in tools and time spent for a few percent “improvement” at the edge.
So why do I do it… you know the answer… Because I can..and want to.
I like carrying a super polished, hair popping,treetopping, HHT passing, pattern push cutting blade to show off… I get sharpening jobs that way
When I am going to take a knife into the field… or even my backyard, 1K to maybe 2K with 6 micron stropping, gets me where I want to be.
BTW, I intend to try the superfine ceramics (1200 or maybe 1600) for a microbevel after the 1K diamonds as Clay suggested to see how that works with no stropping… that may be my new “standard” if it works as well for me as it has for him.
I must admit though, most of my utility blade sharpening, and jobs where folks don’t want to pay for the precision of the WEPS (and time that it takes)I do on a belt grinder. 240, 600, grit belts then HF1 and jewelers rouge on leather… well under 10 minutes and a very sharp knife.
If you are happy with the edges that you are getting, there is not much reason to buy more stuff..
Phil
Phil
I think you summed it up well Phil. It’s a bit like the greyhound that catches the mechanical rabbit. Once they catch it they are not nearly as interested in chasing it.
I still love using the different stones to get different levels of refinement on my various blades. But as you say there is a rule of diminishing return where the cost and effort vs the appearance and utility of the cutting edge must be balanced.
I am not sure how many knives I will get out of my pastes. I think I read in a post by Clay somewhere that he estimated about 50 blades on one application before he had to re-apply more paste. I have new leather strops and they seem pretty smooth, so I think I may have to re-apply paste more often than that to get the desired effect. It seems to kind of wipe off when I polish my blades.
If I have to continuously order more pastes, the hassle and expense factor may make me less likely to do so. I think I can achieve a good mirror like finish going from micro fine to kangaroo with no paste for what I need.
Just sharing my thoughts here and would find yours interesting as well for discussion.
Just a quick thought..
Don’t use too much paste. I did at first…it just made a gummy mess and came off on the blades. A huge waste!!
In this case, less is more. Just a thin layer, thin enough to sort of see the leather through, is better.
You almost just want the abrasive in the pores of the leather. I put half the tube on the first time. A disaster. I had to resurface the strops to get rid of it and start over. Those syringes will last a very long time if you apply it right…
We are way off topic for a waterstones thread… you are wandering.
Phil
You’re right. I should have started a new thread, apologies.
Scott asked the question either in this thread or eleswhere about “improvements” uisng the Choseras specifically 5K and 10K after the Ceramic WEPS Microfine stones.
I have a Spyderco Damascus Mule Team 07 that I just put a Goboon Ebony handle on..with grey liners… very nice. So I wanted a real nice shiny edge. Having just got the 4 ceramis from WEPS a week or so ago, I wnted to try just using the diamonds and the 4 ceramic stones. I went through the progression and added about twice the number of strokes that I normally do. I ended up with a very nice sharp edge that was reflective enough to show phone book print pretty well. It just wasn’t reflective enough though…comparing it to knives that I have done with the Choseras. I went back and started with the 2K/3K Choseras. About 50 strokes at each grit and the difference in reflectivity is truly amazing. The Choseras simply out polish the Ceramics. In addition after all of the extra strokes with the Ceramics. there was still a sort of mat background and easily visible with no magnification were lots of very fine scratches. I call it reflective, but not a mirror edge.
Scott, I can’t say that the Choseras will make a knofe sharper than the Ceramics, but if you are looking for a pretty edge, as I was with the Mule, there is just not any comparison.It is all in the results that you want I guess.
BTW this was the second knife I tried this with . The Damascus has a VG1 core, I also did a Mule in BCTS-B75P…supposed to be similar to BG42. The results were very close to the same. I left the B75P knife with the Cermaics edge …and stropped lightly with 6 micron paste on leather… A very nice cutting edge I think, but not nearly as shiny.
Phil
Thanks Phil, this is what i am looking for. Interesting results.
Thanks Phil,
Very informative and helpful. I appreciate your sharing this info, even though it may wind up costing me a bunch more now. I see where the Chosera stones are now listed on the website among the top selling accessories.
By the way, you mention that you go back to the 2/3 K Chosera Stones, ( presume before finishing them with the 5K/10K C Stones.
Could you do just as well after going through the diamond progression and then the ceramic progression with the added strokes and then to the 5/10 K C Stones or even just the 10 K C Stone since the micro fine ceramic is pretty close to what the 10 K grit is supposed to be? Or do you really need to go back to the 3 K C Stone and then move forward from there. Also, I guess if you do that why go all the way through the diamonds to ceramics and then to the Choseras. Why not just go from 1000 diamond to 3/4 K Chosera then 5/10 K?
Love the feedback available here. Great job.
[quote quote=“Scott Sherman” post=6817]Thanks Phil,
Very informative and helpful. I appreciate your sharing this info, even though it may wind up costing me a bunch more now. I see where the Chosera stones are now listed on the website among the top selling accessories.
By the way, you mention that you go back to the 2/3 K Chosera Stones, ( presume before finishing them with the 5K/10K C Stones.
Could you do just as well after going through the diamond progression and then the ceramic progression with the added strokes and then to the 5/10 K C Stones or even just the 10 K C Stone since the micro fine ceramic is pretty close to what the 10 K grit is supposed to be? Or do you really need to go back to the 3 K C Stone and then move forward from there. Also, I guess if you do that why go all the way through the diamonds to ceramics and then to the Choseras. Why not just go from 1000 diamond to 3/4 K Chosera then 5/10 K?
[/quote]
Interesting that you ask. “usually” after going throught the diamond progression I .. “go back” the the 400 Choseras. They are listed as being much more coarse than the 600 diamonds. Maybe they are, but they “seem” to remove a good bit of tyhe diamond scratches.. after the 1000 grit Diamonds… and brighten up the edge considerably.
I then go to the 600, then 800 then 1000 choseras.. The 1000 are still more coarse then the 1000 diamonds.
After the 1K Choseras we are getting a real nice reflective finish. After the 2K/3K (Tom says this is dependant on the particular blade… being OCD I use them both) It is definitely more reflective at that point, than I got going through the last three knives ..in different steels, than the result using the 4 stones progression with the ceramics from WEPS after the diamonds. The Ceramics “cut” the Choseras.. cut AND polish.
I think you could get there with the 5K/10K Choseras after the ceramics.. It would just take lots more strokes…
As Curtis said, you could get there with strops and the WEPS pastes… and maybe we could… But, again, with lots more strokes.
More in a bit.. need to walk the dogs!
Phil
[quote]Interesting that you ask. “usually” after going throught the diamond progression I .. “go back” the the 400 Choseras. They are listed as being much more coarse than the 600 diamonds. Maybe they are, but they “seem” to remove a good bit of tyhe diamond scratches.. after the 1000 grit Diamonds… and brighten up the edge considerably.
I then go to the 600, then 800 then 1000 choseras.. The 1000 are still more coarse then the 1000 diamonds.
After the 1K Choseras we are getting a real nice reflective finish.[/quote]
What is the benefit of using 100-1000 diamond progression first? I heard that 400 Choseras work very fast, so why you don’t start with them?
?? Cutting down on stone wear maybe?
Speed. The diamonds cut much faster. By their nature, they tend to cut deeper as well. These (relatively) big honkin troughs are what I want to get out with the Choseras. While the 400 Choseras are pretty fast, they can’t touch the 100/200 diamonds for speed.
I think I have seen some Naniwa SuperStones in 120 and 220. These are something I would like to try some day. They could replace the diamonds for all but major repairs I think.
Phil
So… after fnishing up the Damascus mule I deciced to go back to the other Mule with the BCTS-B75P steel and see what some additional stropping would do for it. First, this steel is very close in chemical make up to BG 42 which was used for awhile in custom knives. The biggest use for BG42 was in aerospace for making ball bearings. It can be left very hard, I believe up to Rc 66 or better and polishes very well. The BCTS-B75P is Carpenter Steel’s powder metalurgy version of the BG42. In the Mule it is supposedly hardened to around Rc 63. It should polish even better than the BG42 as the powder technology is designed to produce a finer grain with more uniform distribution of its carbides and the Vanadium which differentiates it.
If you remember from a previous post I had reprofiled this blade with the 100/200 diamonds and worked on it through the 1000 grit diamonds followed by the four grades of WEPS Ceramics. I then did a few strokes per side with 6 micron DMT paste on leather. The finish, while somewhat reflective, still had a lot of visible very fine scratches. Keep in mind that I went to about 200 strokes with each set of the ceramics and alternated every 50 with edge leading and edge trailing strokes. I really wanted to get results that would allow me to use this as my standard progression. It is fairly fast and there is little fiddling with angles. I think for a utility blade or a customer who did not want to pay for the ultimate polish, it could fit that bill nicely.
This time I wanted to follow-up on something that Curtis said. In essence I think I heard that he thought that the Choseras could be replaced by the WEPS pastes to get to the same place. I wanted to see how that would work for me. So I went back to the 14/10 WEPS paste on leather. I hoped to start at this level to get rid of some of the Ceramic scrathces relatively quickly, and I did. I used about 200 strokes at each grit. BTW, I changed my angle from 18 degrees on the main bevel to 17.25 degrees. I then went to 6/3 micron, then 1/0.5 on leather, then 0.125 CBN and 0.1 Diamond on Kangaroo then 0.050 and 0.025 micron dimond on NanoCloth for, again, about 200 strokes per side, per grit.
Bottom line, I had a very sharp, litterally hair whittling edge and a quite shiny bevel. I still had far more fine scratches visible than on the blade done with the Chosera progression to 10K, the 12K superstone, and then from 1 micron down to 0.025 micron strops as above… and the edge is just not quite as bright. Of course this is an entielr different steel than the VG10. I have a second mule in the BCTS-B75P, one day I will have to go back and do it the way I did the VG10 so I can directly compare.
I will see If I can get some pics that will capture what I am talking about… it was 11:30 by the time I finished up last night…and I get up before 5 AM. The pics will have to wait
I hope this does soembody some good!
Phil
It definitely does, Phil. Very good reading. Thanks for posting it!
Ken
Thanks very much for taking time to experiment and report your observations. It is very helpful and appreciated. It certainly shortens the learning curve and at least for some may save money so they don’t have to buy stones or accessories they won’t need or allows some to add stones that they may not have been aware of or get results that otherwise might have been unobtainable.
This goes to all who take the time to experiment and share. Or just share their knowledge or experience.
Phil,
Again, great write up and lots of good info. I can’t wait to get my Chosera’s.
Andrew,
Which Chosera’s did you buy?