Sharpening Intensive...

Took a 6-hour knife sharpening intensive Tuesday from master sharpener Albert Edmonds (http://www.knifesharpeningseattle.com/).

An all-day meditation in motion with the sounds of steel on stone. What a blast…

Most of the day and most of the information is not new to most of you on this forum. And, for the most part, not new to me. Though, obviously, there is something to be said about working under the direct gaze of a master.

Albert knows of the Wicked Edge and complimented it. He does everything freehand. In the class, we worked with his Chosera water stones from 400 up to 10,000. And, at the end of the day he pulled out a milky-white, nearly translucent stone that was used dry and still so slick it felt like the blade floated on it… Amazing… I’ll get the name of it from Albert.

There were two bullet point lists on his whiteboard that made up the sum total of the day.

His process:

1 Inspect
2 Address Issues
3 Sharpen
4 Inspect
5 Strop
6 Cut

In general, Albert repeats steps 1-5 until all issues have been resolved through thorough inspection.

He likes to strop between each grit level. So, we typically did 10 strokes per side, then 8 strokes per side, then 5 strokes, then 2 strokes and then 1 stroke per side for 5 strokes, then strop. Inspect, repeat as necessary before moving on to net grit or next blade issue.

And also, all day, Albert emphasized the underlying foundational principles:

  • Movement isolation – once you find your technique you lock it in, make it repeatable. Start slow.

  • Consistency

  • Inspection

  • Patience!! (The exclamation points are his!!)

A few pictures….

He teaches newbies to set your feet, legs, hips, back, neck, head, shoulders and arms in a relaxed & ready position.  Set the angle of the blade on the stone and gently but firmly “lock” your wrists keeping the fingers “just” touching/gripping the knife -- like shock absorbers.  




Center the thumb on the back of the blade, as in the photo.  



Then, lay the blade on the stone so the heel of the blade has a good purchase.  Then, slide the blade along the stone without wearing the corners off your thumb!




There – that’s my/your natural, normal blade angle setting.  You can make the angle more obtuse or acute by moving the blade up or down the thumb as it rests on the stone.  A simple trick that helped me lock in my sharpening angle.

The Henckel EdgePro knives I picked up at the local Goodwill for a couple of bucks each.  





Now, I have to pick up some stones so I can keep in practice.

I'm not sure how to describe exactly how this class helped me but the two knives I've done on my WE since the class are sharper than I got before the class.<div class="attachments"><div class="attachment_title">Attachments:</div><ul><li><a href="https://knife.wickededgeusa.com/app/uploads/2014/04/Intensive1ThumbPlacement.jpg">Intensive1ThumbPlacement.jpg</a></li><li><a href="https://knife.wickededgeusa.com/app/uploads/2014/04/Intensive1ThumbPlacement2.jpg">Intensive1ThumbPlacement2.jpg</a></li><li><a href="https://knife.wickededgeusa.com/app/uploads/2014/04/IntensiveBlades.jpg">IntensiveBlades.jpg</a></li></ul></div>

Ha!!

I just read through my own post and left out two very important pieces that were absolutely the two most mentioned topics.

Any guesses?

The burr. Chase the burr. Test for the wire edge.

The sound. Listen to the sound.

Sounds interesting!

He give any reason for stropping between each grit level? A bit counterintuitive to me.

[quote quote=“cbwx34” post=16910]

He give any reason for stropping between each grit level? A bit counterintuitive to me.[/quote]

Most people I’ve seen do this do it to remove any residual burr between steps. Not really an issue with correct WEPS technique but free hand? Yeah, I guess I get that.

Ken

[quote quote=“KenBuzbee” post=16912][quote quote=“cbwx34” post=16910]

He give any reason for stropping between each grit level? A bit counterintuitive to me.[/quote]

Most people I’ve seen do this do it to remove any residual burr between steps. Not really an issue with correct WEPS technique but free hand? Yeah, I guess I get that.

Ken[/quote]

Good question. Good answer.

So many little moments of insight.

He set up a situation where we were able to thinly slice paper then cut something else. After that, it was dull. Would only rip paper.

We rolled a wire edge. Stropping removes it.

Stropping between grits, in his opinion and experience say strop between (and lap stones) between grits.

Very interesting .
When I free hand it is that technique pretty much -clean - check is it bent damaged or twisted(repair or straighten)- is it thin enough - work secondary bevel first then primary usually on 1K ( the burr part is not as important as looking to see if there are flat spots on the blade (reflection and the 3 finger technique will help since as the blade gets sharp it will feel less polished and sort of stick to the skin as it tries to pierce it then strop on the stone trailing strokes only - de burr by pulling blade under its own weight through pine wood - then onto 3/5/6/8K(whichever you have)stropping only not many strokes if its not sharp enough stop back to 1K and then repeat again on the finer stone around 5 passes per side is usually enough with little pressure at the same angle as sharpening(trailing strokes only) . Access sharpness with three fingers thumb on spine if the edge feel slightly sticky its sharp for super sharp finish stropping on news paper .
I like to do good blades particularly Japanese this way and cheap or flat blades that have no secondary bevel on the WE.
The trick is regular practice I tried to do a knife every day for at least 6 weeks to get the hang of it I try now to use the bench stones at least as often as the WE to not loose it and it is also a good comparison.
If someone is knife proud I do them on the bench stones if they just see them as tools then I do them on the WE.
I will do small knives like pen knives on the WE especially if they are very showy knives perhaps damascus or highly polished.
I do about 50/50 that is using bench stones or the WE.

It sounds as if it was a rewarding day .

Leo Nav

[quote quote=“GibCurry” post=16915][quote quote=“KenBuzbee” post=16912][quote quote=“cbwx34” post=16910]

He give any reason for stropping between each grit level? A bit counterintuitive to me.[/quote]

Most people I’ve seen do this do it to remove any residual burr between steps. Not really an issue with correct WEPS technique but free hand? Yeah, I guess I get that.

Ken[/quote]

Good question. Good answer.

So many little moments of insight.

He set up a situation where we were able to thinly slice paper then cut something else. After that, it was dull. Would only rip paper.

We rolled a wire edge. Stropping removes it.

Stropping between grits, in his opinion and experience say strop between (and lap stones) between grits.[/quote]

Figured it was burr removal, but hey, ya never know. :). Don’t think I’ve seen it between stones, although it’s occasionally mentioned as to whether or not it should be done. My technique now is to only use leather to add a little “zing” to the final edge, but not as a burr removal technique… that should be done prior to leather if at all possible. My .02 anyway.

No argument here. In fact I’ve seen stropping “mask” burr removal by simply straightening it out. You couldn’t feel it any more but it was still there and collapsed on the first cut.

Ken

So often I am reminded it always goes back to the basics. No matter what I try to learn to do or more importantly how good I think I have become? Life somehow reminds me to go back to basics. :wink:
Gibb it sounds like you had a great day! Thanks for sharing with us!

There seem to be various ideas on burr removal I think that tying not to built a real distinct burr is one answer try looking at the edge for reflection try the three finger instead of looking for a pronounced burr and drag the blade over a piece of wood to remove it and if it still persists try a ceramic steel . I think an overly pronounced burr is not necessarily desirable since they can be persistent especially on inferior steels .
Test the blade running it across 3 fingers with the thumb on the spine if it is sharp the edge will tend to drag into the skin
A distinct burr mens the edge has hooked over to the opposite side and is very flexible which can be difficult to remove trust the mk 1 eye ball to look for any reflection from the blade edge - I think a very small burr is ok but a very obvious one is overkill and can be a mission to remove and maintain a good edge I think using a loupe if the 3 finger technique does not work for you the bevel is clear enough at 20X mag so progress should be visible without necessitating the need for a very noticeable burr particularly with poor steel it is likely to be highly flexible and will flap like a flag .
I think feeling for a burr is a part of sharpening but should not be stressed as an absolute necessity ; if the blade pulled across the finger tips bites rather than runs freely then the edge is keen after stropping (but there is of course no absolute on this matter ; having said that if the burr is very flexible then it will often run away from the strop which will require suitable time to move on. .

Sounds like you had a great day, Gib!

Like some others I have soms questions about the burr removal between stones. Why is this, because the first thing you do - I think - when switching to a finer grits stone is to remove the burr from the previous stone. At least with proper technique.

Leo, what is the three finger technique you talk about? I’d never heard about it.

[quote quote=“LeoBarr” post=16916]Very interesting .

It sounds as if it was a rewarding day .

Leo Nav[/quote]

It was everything I’d hoped for and more.

Albert said all along that he’s teaching what he’d been taught tempered by his years of experience; someone else will have their own way.

Fascinating how important the burr is and after all these millennia of humankind sharpening blades of all kinds, there is still debate.

[video]http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k1o70tMHYM[/video]Here is a link to Murray Carters video explaining the three finger test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k1o70tMHYM
Leo Nav

Ah, that! Thanks! Interesting guy, btw, Murray Carter.

[quote quote=“LeoBarr” post=16936]…Here is a link to Murray Carters video explaining the three finger test

Leo Nav[/quote]

Albert explained it and was doing this all day.

Knowing how sharp the blades were made me a little nervous and appropriately cautious.

[quote quote=“GibCurry” post=16947][quote quote=“LeoBarr” post=16936]…Here is a link to Murray Carters video explaining the three finger test

Leo Nav[/quote]

little nervous and appropriately cautious.[/quote]

That is actually the whole key as to why it works so well. This test and the “pinch test” are key especially on the bench stones. These are the basics we have been talking about they happen first and then three finger throughout the process. :wink:
I have had the pleasure of talking with Murray a few times, he is actually a pretty witty guy! :lol:

It was a good day. Any day sharpening for that long is … tiring… but, still, a very, very good day.

The basic notes were simple to outline. The practice is ongoing.

I was a bit nervous to have someone I know is really good, not just watching, but watching almost microscopically. And, with the purpose to see and correct mistakes. But, more, to see and enhance proper technique and understanding.

I’m hoping to get to spend as much time as I can with sharpeners better than I.

Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to meeting Bob Nash in Eugene at the Oregon Knife Show (http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/Flyer%202014_03.png).

Anyone else from this Forum going to be there?  Or the Seattle show a couple of weeks later?

[quote quote=“cbwx34” post=16910]Sounds interesting!

He give any reason for stropping between each grit level? A bit counterintuitive to me.[/quote]

Thanks for posting this Gib! Sounds like you had a great time! :slight_smile:

I would tend to agree Curtis… In fact, I think the optimal way to remove the burr would be with the stones themselves. If you develop a burr and then keep bending it back and forth until it breaks surely this won’t be as sharp as one finished on a stone.

I try to “cut” my burr off with each grit stone before moving to the next step… I do this with edge leading passes and it works great, especially at the lower grits. I do find that keep chasing it once I get up to the 800-1k range, and it’s annoying!

I just don’t like to strop much because it makes my nice toothy edge not so toothy anymore :frowning:

So Gib, how in the world did you get this arranged?! :slight_smile:

Josh

Hey Gib,

Thanks for the post. I think all of your points apply equally as well to the WEPS. The WEPS just makes the keeping a constant angle part easy. All the rest still requires attention to detail.

“If you do the three finger test on every single blade that comes into your hands you will intuitively know …”

You better not try the three finger test on my straight razors Murry, or you’ll be changing out of your bathrobe to go get some liquid skin at Walgreens.