Sharpeners and steels in a real life kitchen

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1

As a home cook, I have an interest in knife sharpening. I very much appreciate your well documented and scientific approach to sharpening…especially your microscope pics.

After getting all my knives to a polished razor edge, the joy of razor sharp slicing gives way to the reality of preparing daily meals. After a week or two, I re-examined the blades of my go-to knives (I have a $20 USB microscope, which is nowhere near the quality of yours, but is still a very helpful tool). Not surprisingly, there were nicks and edge-rolls. So comes the question - do I pull out a sharpening setup or give it a few strokes with a steel ?

  The popular wisdom of a steel simply straightening the edge is complete BS from what I've seen.  Mine aggressively removes metal, my angle control is imprecise and the previous precision angle-controlled polishing is pretty well torn up.  That said, there is an improvement in cutting ability (though not as good as freshly sharpened), it's quick and easy, and looks cool in front of dinner guests.

It would be great to see an analysis of what sharpening steels really do, with recommendations on when and how to use (or not) in a real world kitchen.

Roger

2

Hi Roger,

Welcome to the forums and an intesting question you ask!

I have never actually tested what these rods do, so I cannot answer from personal experience. Hopefully there are people here who can. And since you have a microscope yourself, maybe you can try to see under the microscope what actually happens.

But as far as I understand it from what I have read, steel rods don’t sharpen an edge: steel on steel generally doesn’t remove metal (substantially). They may however be good at removing a burr that results from the use of a knife.

Ceramics are usually harder than steel, so they do remove metal. So, at least in theory, they could be used to sharpen knives. That is also your experience if I read it correctly. But indeed then you get into the problem of inconsistent angles, which may do more harm to an edge than good.

Personally I don’t use these rods at all anymore (not even to look cool in front of guests :slight_smile: ). It is very easy to do touchups of kitchen knives on the WEPS ceramics (provided you gave them a regrind initially and used the depth key and the ruler). It really is only a matter of minutes and I do this about every 2 weeks (for our amateur kitchen). Works very well and the knives are always sharp.

3

Welcome aboard, Roger!

You asked a very good question, indeed!

Personally, I’m not a fan of metal sharpening steels. A ceramic rod will do better justice in between sharpening.

If you were a pro chef in the middle of your prep and your knife was dying, you couldn’t just whip out your WEPS and sharpen or touch up your knife - not without some stares, anyway! The ceramic rod will do the job of touching up the edge on the fly until you can sit back down and properly maintain/sharpen the knife again on the WEPS. Just be aware that your overall refinement will slowly be reduced to the grit of the ceramic steel rod (about 1,000-1600 grit).

However, you are a home cook, so you can do whatever you want!

IMO, if your edge isn’t holding up for the entire prep, then you should consider adding a micro bevel or using a slightly more obtuse angle on the knife rather than fiddling with a steel of any kind. If you are simply experiencing normal wear on the edge (which is what it sounds like here), you can return to the WEPS and do a few strokes on your final grit rather than a whole new sharpening session.

Lots of guys also have a loaded strop for light touching up in-between meals.

What is your final grit when you sharpen you kitchen knives?

4

The previous 2 posts ask a few questions and make a few statements. I’ll address them one at a time as best my current understanding permits.

“steel on steel generally doesn’t remove metal”
…It does. See attached Pics

“The ceramic rod will do the job of touching up the edge on the fly”
…I don’t have experience with a ceramic rod, but have long used a “diamond steel” which I believe to be around 1000 grit (not sure on that number, I’ll get some pics soon and see if I can confirm or refine it). I’ve used the diamond steel for years, but have never been happy. It always produced a mediocre edge. I recently rediscovered my old steel, and it creates a sharper feeling and faster cutting edge, much to my surprise. Now that I have a microscope, I’m even more surprised how the steel tears up my pretty polished edge, but seems to work in its own way. Hence, my original post. I was kinda hoping someone already researched this paradox.

“What is your final grit when you sharpen you kitchen knives?”
…Currently, I’ve sharpened them to a .3 micron grit with a convex bevel starting at 17 deg and tapering to 18.5 degrees. I’m going to be redoing them at something more like 20 deg tapered to 21.5 to make them more durable. I’m not sure my pork chop can tell the difference between 5 and .3 microns, but it feels cool taking it all the way.

“maybe you can try to see under the microscope what actually happens”
…OK, looks like I’ve got another project. Here’s what I’ve done so far

I’ve taken a really crappy knife (supermarket type Hampton Forge chefs knife), honed it to 19 degrees, 15 microns, and gave it 6 firm swipes (probably not optimal technique) with 3 different steels, re-honing after each steel. I’m not seeking optimum results on a well honed quality blade here, just showing what a steel does.

The 3 steels used are:

  1. An old Chicago Cutlery steel (they used to make reasonably good stuff)
  2. A no-name discount store steel
  3. A new Henckels steel

The 4 attached pictures are as follows:

Steel 4 The Honed blade before using the steel

steel 5 After using Chicago cutlery steel

steel 7 After using No-Name steel

steel 8 After using Henckels steel

 Clearly, all 3 have removed metal. A wipe down of the rods with a paper towel confirms this. The edge, only honed to 15 microns, isn't pretty any more.  It's even uglier on a finely honed edge. But again, the paradox.....it cuts well. The guys who cut meat all day for a living know this.  Not as well as a freshly sub-micron honed blade, but definitely better than my  "diamond steel", or "fine" diamond stone. at some point, a smaller grit size produces a superior cutting edge than a steel. I don't know where that point is, or how to optimally use a steel in combination with a quality hone. 

  Unless someone can enlighten me, I'll have to do some more work on what is an optimal technique, if any, for using a steel on a well honed blade in need of a minor tune up.

Roger

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5

Meant a CONVEX bevel, not concave.

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Hi Roger,

Is it just me or does it look like each rod kind of ruined the edge? I can imagine the knife still cuts meat (the edge seems quite toothy), but I cannot imagine it still cuts paper well.

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[quote quote=“mark76” post=2932]Hi Roger,

Is it just me or does it look like each rod kind of ruined the edge? I can imagine the knife still cuts meat (the edge seems quite toothy), but I cannot imagine it still cuts paper well.[/quote]

Not ruined… just made more toothy :wink: lol. I love toothy edges myself… and I have seen several edges that Clay has done where he will refine the edge up to a mirror finish and then micro bevel a toothy edge of the edge on it. I actually have a lot of experience with the ceramic rod and I love it… it actually does maintain my edge for a much longer amount of time than if I did not use one, and I don’t have to whip out my WEPS every few days. I actually try to use it about every other time I use my kitchen knives. It does remove a small amount of steel while not removing too much.

If you want one that will not remove any steel at all but still will align the edge, get a smooth butcher steel. I am assuming the steel you have has the vertical grooves in it? If so, this will actually remove a lot of metal, more than the ceramic will. I have both a smooth butcher steel and a ceramic steel. I prefer the ceramic as I like to remove a minute amount of metal from my edge each time, but to each his own :slight_smile:

Here you go… check this article out about steeling edges by Chad Ward that I found on the net, may be of some help, especially on how to find the right angle.

8

My use of the steel in the pics was with moderate pressure on a cheap knife, to provide an initial demolition of the “steels do not remove metal” theory. This, of course, undermines the credibility of everything we hear about steels. That said, the thousands or meat cutting professionals who walk around with a steel in their belt probably know something (despite lacking microscopes). The many pieces I’ve read and videos I’ve watched usually say light pressure should be used, so a lot more testing is needed to show a more optimum treatment.

 From past experience (before I got a microscope and sub-micron abrasives and became all scientific), I've observed the following:

A fine diamond stone followed by 2000 grit sandpaper beats the stone followed by a “Diamond steel”

A fine diamond stone followed by an aggressive steeling beats the above. 2000 grit before the steel had little or no effect…no surprise, since the steel obliterates the original edge.

A finely honed blade beats all of the above.

All of this raises more questions than it answers, doesn’t it ?

9

Hi Josh:

All 3 steels were grooved. I haven’t seen any smooth steels around - I’ll have to find one.

Nice article you referred to. I still need to do some testing, though.

As for your comment about a “toothy” edge, I suspect it’s partially true, but there may be another force at work. The steel grooves act like a file, carving microscopic shavings off the edge. These resulting shavings, and the substrate they were shaved off, can be VERY sharp.

Unfortunately, I don’t think my cheap microscope can resolve the cutting edge well enough to visually ascertain sharpness, so in the end, I’ll need to do more subjective testing - like slicing tomatoes and carrots

10

[quote quote=“razoredgeknives” post=2933][quote quote=“mark76” post=2932]
Not ruined… just made more toothy :wink: lol.[/quote]

So you put a microbevel on the edge using a rod? That seems quite a different use of the rod that Chad Ward writes about and as a always understood the use of a rod. Ur izzit me? (Accent Inspector Clouseau.) :dry:

11

I presume you’re referring to my statement “convex bevel starting at 17 deg and tapering to 18.5 degrees” - That was referring to how I currently fine hone my good knives. I am not currently steeling them.

12

As the title of the thread is a “real life kitchen” I’ll chime in. I have had very good service from my Henckels kitchen knives with my WEPS 18 degree edges taken through the 1000 grit WEPS diamond stones. The edge lasts a good while. When I feel it going off, I will use a Henckels steel with a very light pass, twice on each side, alternating LRLR. Very light pressure. IMHO it does a good job of straightening an edge which has either started to roll or become somewhat rolled.

I prefer a somewhat toothy edge for kitchen work, so I stop at the 1000 stones for these knives. (Although I would try the WEPS ceramics, I’ve had the 1200/1600 pair on back order so long I wonder if my order is still in the hopper!)

I do marvel at the levels of almost “scientific” sharpening that folks are doing, and the documentation of the progressions - while I have an academic interest in this, I’m not a fanatic and don’t have the patience for this in my “real life”. But I appreciate the work and learn a lot.

So one vote for the steel, on my kitchen knives, used when appropriate.

13

For a good smooth steel check out the F. Dick “Dickoron” These are the ones we used in the meat packing plant. The others have grooves cut in them so they are essentially round files.

Mark M

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Mark

Thanks for the info, though it’s a little pricey for my taste.

I just did a quick survey on Amazon, reading 3 pages of sharpening steel offerings. Only one steel, a Wusthof, mentioned, “Grooved rod improves ease of sharpening”. Wusthof goes on to say “made of magnetic steel that attracts metal fibers during the sharpening process”, indicating that they understand the steel is behaving as a file.

None of the others said anything about grooved or smooth, though the pictures, when good enough, all looked grooved. Interestingly, the description of the “Zwilling J.A. Henckels Twin Pro”, clearly a grooved rod, says “steel doesn’t actually sharpen a knife” , it “serves a vital role by realigning, or “resetting,” kitchen knives’ edges, which bend this way and that when contacting a cutting surface”. Yes they are blindly repeating the mantra that their round file isn’t really a file.

This subject of how to to touch up a blade keeps getting more complicated ! I’ll throw in another complication - a rolled edge almost certainly requires a different treatment than a dulled edge.

15

Martin Clifton did a video discussing the various types of steels. Check it out.
http://www.videojug.com/film/choosing-a-steel-for-sharpening-a-knife

Edit: Look up F. Dick Packing house steel. That is the one I use.

16

My take on this is that steels do, in fact, remove metal. It’s open to question whether a smooth steel or maybe a borosilicate steel is smooth enough not to remove metal, but certainly the grooved steels do and both of my ceramic steels remove metal too, as you can see below:

The dark stains are metal that’s been taken off blades.

The top steel is from my EP Apex 4 kit. It got a good scrubbing with Bon Ami and a Scotch brite pad after the last time I used it. But you can still see some metal. The bottom steel is a Yoshikin Global G-25. It hasn’t been cleaned in a while. I’ve been meaning to get a more abrasive cleanser (Comet?) to do that.

Note that most manufacturers of kitchen knives and sharpening accessories are calling these “ceramic sharpening rods”. They aren’t pretending that they’re “steels”. EP calls them “ceramic hones”, a term that implies sharpening. I believe they say that the rods are for fine burr removal.

this referenceThe grit ratings on these rods are somewhat of a mystery. I wasn’t able to find any clear information on the grit size of the Global. I found some references to DMT rods with 1500 and 2000 ratings, though. EP rates their rod at 1200 grit, but as I said in a previous post, claims EP uses a non-standard rating.

There may be something to the claim, because the EP hone feels much, much smoother than the EP 1600 grit ceramic stones that just arrived :slight_smile: . I tested the WEPS stones, the Global rod and the EP hone with my finger and with a microfiber cloth. No question that both rods are much smoother than the WEPS stones, and the EP hone feels distinctly smoother and more slippery than the global rod (though not as much difference as both rods to the WEPS stones. I would guess in WEPS paralance these rods are well over 2000 grit, maybe higher.

The ceramic rods are finer than anything in my WEPS kit other than the strops. They’re a lot quicker to access and use for light touch-up before using a kitchen knife. I suspect if they’re used with very, very light pressure and just a few strokes (as I do), they’ll correct flaws in the edge either by pressing them out or removing very small amounts of metal. I’ve found a light touch is essential – anything heavier tends to make the edge worse than it was.

The issue with steels that remove metal is matching the edge. I see nothing wrong with removing a little metal to restore the edge, as long as it’s not creating a second bevel or a new profile. This suggests practicing to match the edge angle when steeling. Probably difficult, but not impossible.

I’m thinking about picking up a smooth steel and seeing if that provides any benefit over the rods. I suspect it’ll take more strokes and probably a firmer hand, especially with my VG-10 knife.

BTW, I’ve always been puzzled by the notion that steels “straighten the edge” – i.e., correct indentations and rolled edges. I can see where smooth steel could press out an indentation, but I don’t see how it can “unroll” an edge. The typical steeling action is from edge to spine, so if anything a rolled edge would be bent over and pressed into the edge. Perhaps it breaks off? If so, that doesn’t seem good.

In contrast, I can see how a strop could unroll an edge because the action is spine to edge.

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This is an interesting definition of the different types of steel:

“One Knife Sharpener tool is known as a Honing Steel. A Honing Steel is a type of hardened cylindrical rod used similarly to Honing Stones. For example, a Butcher Steel is a round file with the teeth running the long way, while a Packer Steel (used in the meat packing industry) is a smooth, polished Steel rod designed for straightening the turned edge of a knife, and is also useful for burnishing a newly finished edge.”

http://www.kitchenknivesandutensils.com/sharpeners

Another one:
“We will get into the various types of steels in just a moment, but be aware that the grooved steels that come with knife sets do in fact remove metal. A grooved steel acts as a file when used with a heavy hand, knocking microscopic chips out of your edge. At the very least, it is much coarser than the fine abrasive you used to achieve your edge. Steeling heavily with a grooved steel is taking several steps backward. A grooved steel should be used with caution and a very light touch.”

" A steel actually “smears” the edge, teasing out a little more thinness. You’ll have a keener edge, but it will be weaker than the freshly sharpened edge."

I have seen photo micrographs of edges that have been steeled where the rolled edge was pressed back, folded over and the edge “smeared” to where it cut better.

You can see some examples of a packers steel here:

http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Honing-10-Inch-Smooth-Plastic/dp/B000MF469E

http://www.amazon.com/Dick-Packinghouse-Sharpening-Chromium-plated-Stainless/dp/B00063QBI6

This last one is the one I have used (but I put it on the buffer with varying grits until, ending up with jewelers rouge, you can use it as a mirror), though these days I use a bench strop with horse butt leather charged with 1 Micron diamond spray to much better effect for quick touch ups.

John Juranitch author of “Razor Edge Book Of Sharpening”, says that you should never get a steel that you can’t see your reflection clearly in, anywhere close to any knife. I bought his book something over 20 years ago and used his system and concepts up until about 8 months ago when I got my WEPS (and EP and Kalamzoo, and various waterstones, and stops, and submicron spays and pastes :).
What he says makes sense, if you can’t straighten your edge with a smooth steel, you probably need to go back to your stones. Taking a rough file to your blade just seems counterproductive…
even if you just go to the 1000 grit diamond on the WEPS.

One last link about hoing and stropping:
http://zknives.com/knives/articles/wssteeling.shtml

This is an excerpt:
“Steeling(or stropping) is the simplest and the quickest procedure that you can perform to maintain and extend the useful life of your edges, hence the knives themselves. Very simple procedure, however, unfortunately, most of the people never do it, others do it with a wrong tool, which arguably is worse than not steeling at all. I’m talking about the dreaded grooved steel, or butchers steel in other words that comes with every standard cutlery set sold in US and as far as I can tell, in the rest of the world as well.” “The process is absolutely different, sharpening implies removal of the metal, while stropping/steeling does not, it just realigns the deformed metal, for the pedants, yes the small pieces of metal can and will be removed during steeling or stropping, but that is due to the metal fatigue, not because it was intended.”

Not sure if this answers the original question, but hopefully it presents something of interest…

Phil

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Thanks for pointing that out peppersass… I need to change what I call the ceramic rods from ceramic “steels” to ceramic hones.

As to your question about how it will straighten the edge if it is rolled, I would say that it depends on how much it is rolled. If it is severely rolled, you would seem to be correct in your theory - sometimes when this is the case, I will do a few trailing strokes/side to semi-align the edge before I go directly into the edge on the hone. Seems to work well anyway :slight_smile:

19

This is a fascinating topic guys, thanks for all the posts and great information. We’ll be receiving our new line of ceramic stones in 2 weeks that are extremely smooth 1.4um and .625um respectively. If we like those two stones really well and they become popular, we might add another set in at .375um and .25um. These are super hard, super fine stones from Coorstek and will be a great tool for quick maintenance.

20

Thanks to all the posters who have contributed to this topic. I’ve done a bit more testing, and I think we have enough information to draw some pretty good conclusions.

Here are some pictures to illustrate what we’ve learned

  1. A knife sharpened to .3 microns, with a hair for size reference. It’s a very cheap knife, which I then beat up a bit.

2,3 The edge after being beat up

  1. The edge after steeling with a groove steel

  2. Knife re honed, then steeled with a diamond steel

  3. I don’t have a smooth steel, but the 1/2 " of my Henkles steel next to the handle is smooth, so I did what I could with that after re-honing the blade

7 Reality. Paper thin tomato slices, from left to right Cheap knife with grooved steel, cheap knife freshly honed than smooth steeled, and my fav santoku freshly honed. Note the diamond steeled knife isn’t shown…it could not break the skin of the tomato.

Conclusions.
It’s interesting that almost 100 % of the talk about what steels do, including that coming from celebrity chefs, refers to the smoothing effect of a smooth steel, while almost 100% of the steels out there are grooved, and behave completely differently. So much for the wisdom of crowds. On a more practical note, we can conclude that:

  1. A freshly honed edge is the ultimate solution

  2. A smooth steel will touch up a well honed edge without destroying it. Over time, though, as the edge truly dulls, it will need to be re-honed, as the smooth steel will not remove metal and reshape the edge.

  3. Grooved steels are ugly under a microscope, and will completely re cut a honed edge, so I wouldn’t even bother fine honing a blade I intend to steel. That said, they produce an effective edge, and remove enough metal that a grooved steel alone can keep a knife in decent cutting condition, if used properly.

  4. My diamond steel is the all time loser. Don’t know why, or if other diamond steels are the same, but the grooved steel produces a much more effective edge.

So I'm pretty satisfied that we've gotten to the bottom of this, except we haven't talked about strops for quick touch ups - I'm playing with them now and may have more on that in the future.

Roger

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