Ok, I know this has prior threads on it, just throwing this one out there. I’m 8 sharpenings in with the WE now, and just wondering what results could be obtained at this point compared to what I’m actually getting with my setup (PPII)? What I’m producing right now is a very sharp edge with alot of scratches still. At least 4 of those were reprofiles. Are the stones fully worn in yet? Using diamonds through 1000, then course and fine ceramics, then 1m and .5m strops.
Thanks for any info,
Sauce
It’ll take a while to wear in your stones. I’ve probably done upward of 50 sharpenings by now and while the stones have worn in nicely, I’m not to the point where only the 1000# stone is a suitable final finish to me for EDC type use. Clay had some pictures under the microscope showing the results of a new set of stones with very worn in ones from his normal work kit, it’s a neat comparison.
Since you’re just starting out, keep an eye on the blade whenever you change grits and make extra sure you’re taking out the previous grit’s scratches before moving on. I’ve had a couple where I was in a rush and didn’t take that time, then ended up with blemished portions of the blade later down the road that just wouldn’t polish out! This is really where having a jeweler’s loupe or something similar pays off, because under magnification it’s usually pretty easy to spot. The best polishes I’ve done thus far were utilizing sandpaper strips to bridge the gap between 1000# diamond stones and the 5um paste strop, which is all I have available at the moment (Pro Pack 1).
The only thing I would add to Tom’s post is use light pressure. Then try even lighter. I use moderate pressure during the reprofile stage (probably too much), but after that I try to focus on light pressure. When I think it’s time to go to the next stone I do 10 more strokes per side even lighter.
I agree (depending on the steel) it would be hard to get a wicked edge with just 1000# diamonds. I have stopped here with some cheap multi tool blades, that count as EDC, but aren’t great blades. The 1000 diamond does leave a toothy edge which you may or may not want.
[quote quote=“Geocyclist” post=8881]The only thing I would add to Tom’s post is use light pressure. Then try even lighter. I use moderate pressure during the reprofile stage (probably too much), but after that I try to focus on light pressure. When I think it’s time to go to the next stone I do 10 more strokes per side even lighter.
I agree (depending on the steel) it would be hard to get a wicked edge with just 1000# diamonds. I have stopped here with some cheap multi tool blades, that count as EDC, but aren’t great blades. The 1000 diamond does leave a toothy edge which you may or may not want.[/quote]
Going from 1000 diamond, to course/fine ceramics, then strops. What are the capabilities of that combination? How much of a polished edge can one expect to see with those particular tools? What would one suggest to increase the polish, sharpness? Minus the water stones. Not interested if at all possible.
Thanks again,
Sauce
With the progression you describe I usually get a pretty mirror edge.
It’s hard to judge from a distance what is going for you on exactly. It could indeed be that your stones are not fully worn in yet. However, if you’ve done eight knives already they should at least be somewhat worn in (depending on the steel and the amount of strokes you do).
My best guess is that at some point with one or more stones you have not completely erased the scratches form the previous grit stones. As Tom said, a loupe is a good tool to judge that. (And they’re pretty cheap. Chefknivestogo sells a good 45x loupe for about $14.)
The first thing I’d do is to make absolutely sure that you have raised a burr on both sides of the blade with your initial stones. If you haven’t done that, that’s probably the reason. The sharpie trick helps well in this, too.
Then it’s a matter of wiping out scratches. Again, if you’re not sure, you could use the sharpie trick here, too. If your stones are not fully worn in yet, it just takes a little longer, but you can get there. If you first use moderate pressure and then light pressure (as Geo recommended) you should get there. Maybe it just takes a little more strokes. Also, I usually do more srtokes with the higher grit stones to make sure I wept out the scratches from the previous stone.
It’s probably overkill, but if nothing works, you could try to raise a burr and apply the Sharpie trick with the higher grit stones as well.
A final tip I could give you is to use quite a bit of pressure with the strops. Not everyone on the forum does it that way, but it works well for me.
Success! Eventually you get there. And though there is a bit of a learning curve, I’ve found it’s not too steep.
Let us know how you fare. And if you can provide us more information, we might be able to give more focussed advise.
[quote quote=“mark76” post=8890]With the progression you describe I usually get a pretty mirror edge.
It’s hard to judge from a distance what is going for you on exactly. It could indeed be that your stones are not fully worn in yet. However, if you’ve done eight knives already they should at least be somewhat worn in (depending on the steel and the amount of strokes you do).
My best guess is that at some point with one or more stones you have not completely erased the scratches form the previous grit stones. As Tom said, a loupe is a good tool to judge that. (And they’re pretty cheap. Chefknivestogo sells a good 45x loupe for about $14.)
The first thing I’d do is to make absolutely sure that you have raised a burr on both sides of the blade with your initial stones. If you haven’t done that, that’s probably the reason. The sharpie trick helps well in this, too.
Then it’s a matter of wiping out scratches. Again, if you’re not sure, you could use the sharpie trick here, too. If your stones are not fully worn in yet, it just takes a little longer, but you can get there. If you first use moderate pressure and then light pressure (as Geo recommended) you should get there. Maybe it just takes a little more strokes. Also, I usually do more srtokes with the higher grit stones to make sure I wept out the scratches from the previous stone.
It’s probably overkill, but if nothing works, you could try to raise a burr and apply the Sharpie trick with the higher grit stones as well.
A final tip I could give you is to use quite a bit of pressure with the strops. Not everyone on the forum does it that way, but it works well for me.
Success! Eventually you get there. And though there is a bit of a learning curve, I’ve found it’s not too steep.
Let us know how you fare. And if you can provide us more information, we might be able to give more focussed advise.[/quote]
I’m using the sharpie and definitely raising a burr along the entire edge with the 100 grit stones. I think you hit the nail on the head stating that I’m probably not erasing scratches from previous grits. Not used a loupe yet, will invest in one.
The fact that you said you can obtain a pretty mirrored edge with those particular stones/strops is what I wanted to hear, now I can just work on my technique. Wanted to take that out of the equation.
You guys provide good info directly and indirectly(studying other posts)!
Thanks again,
Sauce
[quote quote=“Sauce” post=8892]I think you hit the nail on the head stating that I’m probably not erasing scratches from previous grits. Not used a loupe yet, will invest in one.
[/quote]
Just to add to that. I was once in the same situation as you are. I then did 200 strokes per side with the subsequent stones. That was an incredible amount of overkill (as I know now), but at least I was sure I’d wiped out the scratches from the previous stones.
And you’ll probably not get a great mirror edge after the ceramics (for me it’s still a bit hazy), but the Wicked Edge pastes are really great at that. As I’ve said before, not everyone agrees to this, but for me using moderate pressure with the strops was the difference between a hazy mirror and a great mirror.
You can also try adding in scratches in a different direction, for example if you’re swiping heel to tip, add some tip to heel. This can help determine when the scratches are being removed.
[quote quote=“Sauce” post=8892]I’m using the sharpie and definitely raising a burr along the entire edge with the 100 grit stones. I think you hit the nail on the head stating that I’m probably not erasing scratches from previous grits. Not used a loupe yet, will invest in one.
Sauce[/quote]
Try not to raise a burr at 100 grit, rather raise a burr, preferably at 1000 grit or 800 grit. The less time you spend on the lower grits, the less damage you’ll do. Don’t get me wrong if there are scratches any of the techniques shared will work.
Most common rookie mistakes are thinking they need to use their coarsest stones, and that they need to raise a burr on course grits.
Happy sharpening,
Nick
[quote quote=“NicholasAngeja1” post=8905][quote quote=“Sauce” post=8892]I’m using the sharpie and definitely raising a burr along the entire edge with the 100 grit stones. I think you hit the nail on the head stating that I’m probably not erasing scratches from previous grits. Not used a loupe yet, will invest in one.
Sauce[/quote]
Try not to raise a burr at 100 grit, rather raise a burr, preferably at 1000 grit or 800 grit. The less time you spend on the lower grits, the less damage you’ll do. Don’t get me wrong if there are scratches any of the techniques shared will work.
Most common rookie mistakes are thinking they need to use their coarsest stones, and that they need to raise a burr on course grits.
Happy sharpening,
Nick[/quote]
Nick, I just read a thread where you stated the following in ALL CAPITALS:
" IF I WAS TEACHING SOMEONE TO SHARPEN, I STILL STAND BY THE FACT THEY SHOULD DEVELOP A BURR AT EVERY GRIT TILL THEY LEARN THE SKILL, EXPERIENCE, OR “ZEN;” LOSS OF METAL IS A SMALL COST TO LEARN HOW TO SHARPEN AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON WHEN SHARPENING"
Kind of contradicting what you stated in this particular thread. So which is it?
Thanks,
Sauce
If you read his entire post, he also talks about not raising a burr until the finer grits, as your experience grows. I believe he meant the part you quoted as a beginner tip. (Although, if you read my reply, not at every level).
It’s pretty common to teach “raise a burr first with your coarse stone” because that’s often the hardest point for a new sharpener to learn. Once the “Eureka Moment” hits… “Ahhhhh, so that’s a burr”, and a new sharpener starts to realize what’s going on, you realize you don’t have to raise a burr with the coarsest stone… that you’ll reach the edge as you progress thru, and end up with a more refined (ie polished) edge, because the work was done with the finer stones, and less work needed to get the coarse marks out.
(I know I’m not Nick, but I did drive by a Holiday Inn Express… ) 
Just thought I’d offer a different perspective.
Just pointing out some inconsistencies, no harm no foul. Nick starts this thread out saying not to raise a burr at 100 grit, states it’s a rookie mistake. Says quite the opposite in the other thread, more than once. I’m understanding the theory you can burr it up later in the progression, will try it next time.
Thanks to all again for the input!
Sauce
Well..
Here I go again. We had a long topic where we discussed what a mirro bevel really is. It seems that many people call many stages of reflectivity a mirror. If sharpening myself I consider a mirror to be a mirror… an edge just as reflective as my bathroom mirror, and with less than 5% coverage with visible scratches.
You simply can’t easily get that with the progression that you mention. Actually, I don’t think it is possible at all without spending hours on the strops. Recently I tried on some D2, AUS 8A and S30V. I used the diamonds through 1000, then the 1200/1600 ceramics, then coarse and fine microfine ceramics, then 6/3 and 1/0.5 micron paste/spray respectively. What can I say, the bevel was somewhat reflective, but with lots of visible fine scratches. For the application the knives will be used for… it was fine.. and they were very sharp.
The ceramics leave what I would call a semi reflective (shiny, but no mirror) edge. Even after 100 strokes each side with all four ceramic grits, there were lots of visible scratches. Now in this way they are more similar to the Shapton stones. They just don’t supply much in the way of polishing ability at all. You can make the bevel brighter with the strops, but you would need hours of stropping time to get rid of the visible scratches. If you want a real mirror (in my definition) you need some stones that polish as well as abrade. Even the 1000 grit Chosera stones will give you a much more mirror like bevel than the sub-micron ceramics. I have 5K and 15K Shaptons that I will not use when trying for a perfect mirror, because, although very precise, like the Ceramics, they leave… perfectly aligned and very precise Scratches! A great edge for cutting things…but scratchy…
BTW I test by holding a bright flashlight almost parallel to the edge. By cahnging the angle it is easy to see both the amount of reflectivity and the damn scratches. It really shows scratches that you may not see in normal light and looking at the bevel perpindicularly.
I can tell you that getting to my definition of a mirror edge is time consuming. I use 13 different grits of stones and eight different grits on strops from 3K up I am doing 150 strokes…or more per side… 3 to 4 hours… and often I am not really satisfied with the results.. I can still see some scratches (AAARG). However, when I have compared these edges with some of the stuff my local sharpening buddies call a mirror edge… they quite amazed at the difference. There is at least an order of magnitude more reflectivity and scratch removal.
So, it is all about what you want. This whole perfect mirror scratch free thing is all about OCD and just saying…I can do it. It sure does not make the knife orders of magnitude sharper… BUT, it is an eye catcher and has gotten me quite a few sharpening jobs
Phil
Hey..
There are lots of theories out there about the best way to sharpen knives, and many techniques. Curtis once talked about never apexing the blade until the last stroke on your finest stone. Not his theory, but some do hold that to be true.
Bottom line, with the WEPS, if you carefully form a nice even FINE burr on both sides, along the entire edge, with your coarsest stone, it should be the last burr you need to form. This assumes that your angles are set properly for each stone, of course. If this is true, you will be hitting the edge with every stroke… absolutely no reason to form a burr to “prove” it. Forming a burr at each grit is a waste of time and steel! I also can’t see any reason, on the WEPS, to creep up on the apex. We have seen in Clays photos, Tom’s photos and even some of mine, that getting extreme edge refinement just does not require this.
I believe that much of what you hear along these lines came from people that sharpen by hand. There are many things that have to be compensated for when you can’t do any better than +/- 1 to 2 degrees in angle control.
If you try this method, Sauce, let us know if you think it got a better edge out of your efforts.
Phil
[quote quote=“Sauce” post=8919]Just pointing out some inconsistencies, no harm no foul. Nick starts this thread out saying not to raise a burr at 100 grit, states it’s a rookie mistake. Says quite the opposite in the other thread, more than once. I’m understanding the theory you can burr it up later in the progression, will try it next time.
Thanks to all again for the input!
Sauce[/quote]
Hey Sauce,
This guy knows how to create a burr and the basics of sharpening, should he just stop and throw his hands in the air and say he is the god of sharpening? You can raise a burr and sharpen anyway you want sauce, i still stand by what i’ve said on any post anywhere!!! [quote]" IF I WAS TEACHING SOMEONE TO SHARPEN, I STILL STAND BY THE FACT THEY SHOULD DEVELOP A BURR AT EVERY GRIT TILL THEY LEARN THE SKILL, EXPERIENCE, OR “ZEN;” LOSS OF METAL IS A SMALL COST TO LEARN HOW TO SHARPEN AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON WHEN SHARPENING"[/quote] The key words here, are… Teaching how to sharpen!!! Obviously over time and with burr experience… I would suggest…[quote]Try not to raise a burr at 100 grit, rather raise a burr, preferably at 1000 grit or 800 grit. The less time you spend on the lower grits, the less damage you’ll do. Don’t get me wrong if there are scratches any of the techniques shared will work. [/quote] Learning to apex the edge on finer grit stones is something I learned to work up too. The target audience for both topics were different, one with intermediate skills and the other with advanced skills. As people become more skilled the method and technique of sharpening will also change even if a small thing like apex-ing the edge at a higher grit, or something I just learned, using different kind of strokes when sharpening. But I understand it can be mind blowing or confusing if taking out of context.
Sauce, you’re all bent because I said “rookie mistake” you’re right; The choice of words was wrong, I guess. But what I meant was Rookie: someone with sharpening experience and a basic understanding. It’s common for rookies to continue apex-ing the edge or raising a burr at 100g even though they know how to look for a burr and feel one at lets say 1000g. Now on the other hand a “greenhorn” (if I may) should be learning to feel for a burr and learning what to look for when raising a burr which is a lot easier at lower grits. I hope this cleared things up for you, sauce.
Nick
Great post Phil. Would you recommend the 5k/10k Choseras after the micro fine ceramics?
[quote quote=“PhilipPasteur” post=8921]Well..
Here I go again. We had a long topic where we discussed what a mirro bevel really is. It seems that many people call many stages of reflectivity a mirror. If sharpening myself I consider a mirror to be a mirror… an edge just as reflective as my bathroom mirror, and with less than 5% coverage with visible scratches.
You simply can’t easily get that with the progression that you mention. Actually, I don’t think it is possible at all without spending hours on the strops. Recently I tried on some D2, AUS 8A and S30V. I used the diamonds through 1000, then the 1200/1600 ceramics, then coarse and fine microfine ceramics, then 6/3 and 1/0.5 micron paste/spray respectively. What can I say, the bevel was somewhat reflective, but with lots of visible fine scratches. For the application the knives will be used for… it was fine.. and they were very sharp.
The ceramics leave what I would call a semi reflective (shiny, but no mirror) edge. Even after 100 strokes each side with all four ceramic grits, there were lots of visible scratches. Now in this way they are more similar to the Shapton stones. They just don’t supply much in the way of polishing ability at all. You can make the bevel brighter with the strops, but you would need hours of stropping time to get rid of the visible scratches. If you want a real mirror (in my definition) you need some stones that polish as well as abrade. Even the 1000 grit Chosera stones will give you a much more mirror like bevel than the sub-micron ceramics. I have 5K and 15K Shaptons that I will not use when trying for a perfect mirror, because, although very precise, like the Ceramics, they leave… perfectly aligned and very precise Scratches! A great edge for cutting things…but scratchy…
BTW I test by holding a bright flashlight almost parallel to the edge. By cahnging the angle it is easy to see both the amount of reflectivity and the damn scratches. It really shows scratches that you may not see in normal light and looking at the bevel perpindicularly.
I can tell you that getting to my definition of a mirror edge is time consuming. I use 13 different grits of stones and eight different grits on strops from 3K up I am doing 150 strokes…or more per side… 3 to 4 hours… and often I am not really satisfied with the results.. I can still see some scratches (AAARG). However, when I have compared these edges with some of the stuff my local sharpening buddies call a mirror edge… they quite amazed at the difference. There is at least an order of magnitude more reflectivity and scratch removal.
So, it is all about what you want. This whole perfect mirror scratch free thing is all about OCD and just saying…I can do it. It sure does not make the knife orders of magnitude sharper… BUT, it is an eye catcher and has gotten me quite a few sharpening jobs
Phil[/quote]
Probably the only thing you needed to type. 
Ok, not really, it’s a good post, and has a lot of good info. But I think this is the key, if you’re looking for a “mirror polish”, especially to your (Phil’s) standard… a waterstone… in particular one that creates a bit of mud, will lead to a better polish. The Chosera’s are a good candidate for this. 2nd option would be to finish with leather, but it’ll take longer. Finishing with ceramics, no matter how fine, will leave scratching that will be detectable under the right conditions.
Or, just check 'em on a cloudy day. :evil:
I have been… without going into maniacal sharpening mode.. (super OCD)..
Using the 2k/3K then the 5K/10K stones after the 4 ceramic progresion.
I have not yet tried what Curtis and others have suggested… use the Coarse microfine ceramic, before the 1200, then 1600 and the fine microfine. That could change things…
Phil
Curtis… if I only wrote two lines… I would have been bored for the rest of the time…
:S
[quote quote=“PhilipPasteur” post=8931]Curtis… if I only wrote two lines… I would have been bored for the rest of the time…
:S[/quote]
:lol: :lol:
It was a good post… don’t want to take away from that… just thought that was the key point.
Nick,
Nobody is bent here. Hopefully you’re not. I appreciate the info you’ve posted. Don’t get your feathers ruffled, seems they might be. Just pointing out inconsistencies that are evident.
Phil, I wish I had the time for the OCD progression you have for that polished edge, must be nice. Good post, thank you. I have 2 little ones that make sure I don’t have that time.
Sauce