Hello all.
I just received my pro pack 1. Tried it out yesterday and tonight a bit. I can see it will take some getting used to but looking forward to getting better and great results. I’ll check the site for tips and ask questions as arise. Ill go to the local thrift store for some knives to practice on.
Welcome Tatooman!
It sounds like you’ve got the right ideas. It’s always a good idea to practice on knives you don’t care too much about and this will give your stones a chance to break in as well.
Thanks Organic!
Welcome Tattooman!
Welcome Tattooman! Please don’t hesitate to ask if you have any questions.
Welcome Tattooman there is lots of information and tips in the forums and a great group of folks here ready to answer questions along with tips and tricks.
Welcome to the forum Tattooman!
Hello again forum.
I need help from the folks here. As you can see I have not posted since I first received the system. Life has been all consuming. That said, I am finally getting back to trying out the WE system. I had some problems with mounting the knives in the vise and “Red” from the WE office was very nice to call me and get me straightened out on that front. Now I am on to trying my hand on some knives.
I have been trying to find the angle on a number of knives my wife and in-laws had. I seem to be doing something very wrong as I cannot seem to find a set up where I have the knife mounted and marked with marker and be able to swipe the edge with the 1000 grit stone and see where the marker is removed? I move the angle up and down and it doesn’t seem to register any difference. I thus cannot try to find the sweet spot or work at raising a burr. It should be noted these are some very dull knives, many years of wear and not in good shape. I question if the bevel on them has been permanently damaged so as to make finding it’s current angle not possible? I know some of the knives my wife has have been run through the cheap store bought v shaped sharpener and with that I’m sure any edge has been badly damaged.
I try to look with the naked eye to see the marker removed, have a magnification glass but nothing as advanced as I have seen referenced on the site. Perhaps it’s my poor eye sight but I simply cannot see the removal of the marker. I suspect I am missing something very simple but at this stage I am frustrated and have not put an edge on any blade. It seems I’m making them duller yet. I tried to even set a new angel on both sides of the blade and then progress up through the stones. I cannot say I ever really felt a burr created as I’ve seen on some of the videos. As they said you may progress up through the stones but you probably wont get a sharp edge. That has proven true for me.
Sorry for the disjointed message. Just trying to explain parts of the frustration I’m experiencing. Any advice is appreciated. I was going to try to reach out to Red again at the office for WE but thought I would check with the folks here first. Thank you in advance for any help in getting me going in the right direction. I hope with your direction I can find some wins.
Eric
Eric, welcome back! First, are you still using the PP1 from 2017?
You may want to try using a red or blue colored Sharpie. Black ink is not as easy to see as these colors are.First, before you can try to determine the existing bevel angles you are trying to find the best clamping position for efficient sharpening. This is called “the sweet spot”. For this process I use at least the 1000 grit stones as you said you are, and a very wide beginning angle setting. 20° or 25° works well for me. Only after I’m comfortable with my clamping position do I then try to determine and match the existing bevel angles.
If you use too wide an angle you may just be contacting the very tip of the knife edge and the strip of Sharpie ink removed may be too narrow to see it. If you can’t see where the stone is removing the ink try setting the angle lower so the stone contacts the knife lower below the knife edge. Then the ink strip removed should be wider and easier to see. Once you can locate where your stones are contacting the steel and you see where they are removing the ink you are in control of the bevel angles that you can then create.
Well worn knife edges may lose almost all traces of their original bevel angles. Especially knives that have been sharpened with various methods over the years. “V” type pull-through sharpeners are especially damaging to knife edges. For your old knives, 20° per side bevel angles are a good choice for an initial re-sharpening with your W.E.P.S.
I suggest you watch this video and read all helpful info on the linked page: https://support.wickededgeusa.com/portal/en/kb/articles/how-to-find-your-angle
Thank you Marc.
Yes. Same initial system I purchased then. It really has not had much work done with it. As I said just getting back into the process again.
I appreciate the suggestions especially the ink colors. I will give it a shot tomorrow and see what results come. I tried the different angels but perhaps I missed some of the basics. I will check out the attached video this evening and put it into practice again tomorrow.
Thank you for getting back so quickly. I will follow up again once I have a chance to try your initial suggestions.
Eric
Hello Marc.
Thank you again for the consult to get me up and going again on the WE system. Your hints aided me in getting the knife mounted and the different colored marker did aid in seeing the blade with some magnification. After a few more attempts with knives I do have a few follow up questions.
It seems to me as I’ve worked on the first 4 knives I seem to be between 2 angles on the angle guide. Perhaps the ink is coming below the bevel but it seems I cannot get the angle to hit the bevel completely no matter what angle I set it at. When in doubt I chose the angle that brought me up closer to the tip so as to re-profile the bevel. Not sure if that is proper or if I should have followed a different procedure? I followed the procedure to find the sweet spot. The contact with the bevel is consistent over the full length of the blade. I think the mount was good. The angle was just slightly in question which I know is highly significant to having success.
Next issue/question is my attempt to raise a burr. Question is how obvious will the burr be? From what I’ve read and seen from others they say run a finger nail up the opposite side and one should certainly feel and also hear as the nail runs over the burr. I cannot tell if the burr is being raised enough. I can feel some edge but certainly not significant. I was unsure how aggressively I should be trying to raise the burr. My gut tells me I never really raised the burr enough but I tried to stay the course. Once I worked up the scale in grits I was able to get some sharpness. The best I could describe the sharpness as is “toothy”. It seems very rough and although it does hold on my finger nail on an angle, it won’t cut paper easily with a sheet of paper pulled across it as the knife is in the vise. Not sure if there are any hits that may help me. I watched the video clay did regarding finding the angle. I think I did it correctly. Even had another set of eyes look at my set up and review the same information from the site as I did. We both thought I had it correct but I still think I’m missing a key detail.
Any suggestions or tricks you can suggest would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance!
Eric
Sounds like you’re on your way. The knives are getting clamped in the “sweet spot”.
The WE100 model in the Pro Pack 1 is the most affordable, economical model but it offers the least adjustability for angle setting precision and less ease of use. Each of the angle positioning indents I believe are 1/2º apart. So, when trying to match an existing bevel angle you could find yourself above or below the angle you’re attempting to match. The WE100 is really for basic users willing to work with what the model allows. You’re looking to do more with your sharpener model than it was intended to do.
You might try removing the guide rod angle adjuster brackets then slide them back on the square bar so to swap them side for side. This will orient the locking screws so they are facing the rear. Then you can lock the adjuster screws down against the flat, rear side of the square bar, without the indents, in any position you need to use them. This will help allow you to better match your existing angle. Another not very expensive option is to purchase the WE100UP2 upgrade kit. Then you’ll have the adjustability you’re wanting.
Forming a burr is necessary to apexing the knife edge with your sharpening strokes. The burr is the physical indicator you are sharpening the very edge of the knife, the apex. It is distinct and easy to feel with the methods you mentioned above. It won’t be hard to see it and feel it once you have developed the burr. I suggest that you always raise a burr with your first grit. Then with all things kept the same throughout the sharpening progression you should easily achieve the sharpness results you seek.
If you have doubts about whether you have raised a burr then you probably have not. Your angle setting may be to acute or too low and your working the knife below the edge. You might try widening your angle setting or, possibly you just haven’t worked at it long enough until eventually you’ll apex the edge and develop the burr.
Toothy is a good description of knives sharpened with stones that are not quite broken in well enough yet. Your sharpness will improve as your stones better wear in. The consistency of your sharpening strokes and the amount of time and effort you put into each grit also contributes to the final quality of your sharpened edges. If you are in doubt as to whether you have used a grit long enough, just use it longer. The feel will smooth out and the sound will also become smoother, quieter and less grating when you’re reaching the limits of that grit stone. More is always better for the beginner. You will not over do it.
Here is a good video well worth viewing for the beginner. Don’t worry about the title. Just watch it and it’ll get into the basics after the first few minutes of the video when Tom Blodget finds his stride around 3:30. (You can skip the second part of the two-part series).
Marc.
This is very helpful. I had the thought it was the stones not being broken in enough. I was worried to not push it too much. Knowing more is doable is very helpful. Tom in the video starting with the circular movement and then up and down before the standard stroke is insightful. I was concerned it was too aggressive although I’d seen similar in other videos. I am back at it tonight. Anxious to try the new methods.
The upgrade you linked for the system does what exactly? More alternatives of angle options between the set numbers on the bars? I didn’t see what was exactly different although I may have missed something.
It this point I am going to work the stones more on the rough knives I have in stock currently. That and the new techniques should get me progressing down the line further.
I want to thank you for the great info, support and the very fast response. Great team and community with wicked Edge and all the users.
Much much appreciated.
Eric
To try to explain in simple terms, the Wicked Edge sharpeners are simple bench vises designed to clamp our knives stationary and securely, edge up. This allow us to work both sides of the knives simultaneously without the need to hold the knife. We sharpen our knives by removing steel from the knife sides and up to the knife edge, the apex, at an angle we determine by the guide rod angles settings.
With the sharpening stones sliding on the guide rods we are removing and shaping the knife steel attempting to create two flat planes angled up to the knife edge on both sides of the knife. Where these two flat planes, the bevels, intersect, a line is formed. This line is the knife edge or apex. The finer and more precise this line of intersection is between the bevels, the keener and sharper the knife edge is.
The guide rods maintain the angle at which the face of the sharpening stones can slide across the knife edge. Within this angle determined by how the guide rods are set we can use various different sharpening strokes to remove and shape the edge steel. At first we may use up-down scrubbing strokes or maybe round and round strokes while working one knife side first then the other later. We are simply attempting to remove steel quickly and easily, to rough in the shape and angle of the bevels as we start first with the more coarse grit stones. In general, no matter which direction sharpening stroke we find we like to use, the preset angles of the guide rods keeps our bevel work on track. It is up to us though, to keep the amount of steel we remove even, from side to side, to keep the bevel heights even and balanced.
As our bevels are shaped and established with the coarse grit stones, we then follow up with finer grits to smooth and finish the bevels so the line of intersection, the apex is finer, keener and the knife edge is sharpened. These subsequent sharpening strokes may be more unidirectional and uniformed, while alternating them from side to side with each next stroke to refine then eventually polish the knife edge.
For your particular model sharpener, the WE100, your guide rod angle setting adjustments are simply gross angle adjustments. These are determined just by where the guide rod rotating joints are positioned on the square bar, closer or wider away from the knife edge. The upgrade I suggested allows you to convert the angle adjustability of your WE100 to that of the WE120 model. Then you can adjust your guide rods in-between the gross angle settings determined by the square bar indents to achieve any angles you need to work with. This way you can match or establish any bevel angles you choose to use.
That makes sense. Thank you Marc. I think I am on the right track. I will happily purchase any needed amendments for the system. It has nothing to do with cost or investment in the program. I want to get my feet wet and then wade in further. Much like other hobbies/crafts…one doesn’t know what they do not know. This is a new learning curve. I’m feeling good about the progress.
I’m taking away from the dialogue that my having worked on 25ish knives to date is one large driver in my results and the fact the stones have not been broken in nearly enough yet. I am assuming at this stage my results are a result of that reality. As such, I go to work on more of the rough blades, AKA dull as a butter knife, in my basement and re-evaluate results with the system.
Will check back again when I have results to report. I feel confident it will be with WE results.
Thank you again.
Eric
Eric, I didn’t realize you’ve already used your stones with 25 knives. I would expect that would be enough knives to break in your stones well. Possibly your rough blade results may simply be that you hadn’t apexed the knife edges, evidenced by a noticeable burr, or you didn’t sharpen the knives long enough, well enough or with the correct technique.
There is a bit of a learning curve using the WEPS. In addition, the learning curve may differ a little bit from sharpener model to model. That said, once you figure it out so you know where you’re applying your stone work, evidenced by the scratch patterns, then you can control and direct this stone work resulting in a sharp knife edge. You’ll know then that you’re on the right track. From then on your results should continue to improve as you refine your technique with gained experiences.
Marc.
Thank you again for your counsel and guidance. It is very helpful and appreciated.
Tried another kitchen knife today. Had success this time. I had to spend much more time with the 100 grit stone to re-profile the blade and finally created the burr. Followed the same follow up process from the video you shared. Time will tell as my wife puts the knife into practice how well the edge holds but it turned out very good compared to those to date.
A few questions. Using the circular motion with the 100 grit I was able to raise the burr over the entire knife. Following that, as show in the video, I used the sawing motion and lastly the full traditional stroke. Is there a need to follow up and do that same process with the 200 grit or any higher stones? I realize likely no with 800 or 1000 but at 2, 4 or 600? I did not. Everything I’ve read seemed to have folks going up the the grit sequence with the standard stroke once the burr has been raised with the lower grit. Was asking for clarity with future knives I will proceed with.
Secondly, It was actually my wife’s observation that I seemed to be putting exceptionally light pressure onto the blade with the stones. Further suggesting perhaps that was contributing to my challenges. I was subscribing to the idea of “letting the stones do the work.” When starting again with the 100 grit I pushed somewhat more and sure enough the results came. Much lighter as the grits increased and even less so as they were quieted in progressing. Question is to what degree does pressure with the stones aid in steel removal versus accelerating the breakdown of the diamonds? I’m guessing I’m too worried about the wear on the stones and that is delaying the breaking in process. I’m not asking about scrubbing the blades exceedingly aggressively rather if I am trending in the right direction to re-profile some of the knives that have been mis-sharpened AKA abused to date? Feels like I did the right thing today. The sharpener deck is fairly dirty as I suspect that is the break in of the 100 grit stones that got such a workout.
Motivated I seemed to get one right. If all makes sense from your perspective I will continue on. Thanks again for all the help.
Eric
Eric, you are indeed on the right track. I commend your efforts. It’s clear to me that you’re figuring this out exemplified by the questions you’re asking and your experiences and observations you’re sharing.
The W.E.P.S. are hand tools. With them we are first grinding away damaged and misshapened knife edge steel starting with the coarser grit diamond stones then eventually polishing up the refreshed surfaces with the finer grit diamond stones. The amount of force and effort we apply through the stones are commensurate with what we’re trying to do. Your observation and experience while doing this is really your best teacher for how to do it best. You are right on it. There is a balance to be struck between the proper applied stone pressure and excessive wear placed on the diamond abrasives. It’s a learned thing. Through practice and experiences we learn and develop a feel for the proper amount of pressure we need to use to get the job done.
In general I use more stone pressure with the coarser grits at the start and lighten up on my stone pressure with subsequent finer grits. You’ll learn shortly that you don’t always need to begin with the coarsest grit you have. In your situation, the 100 grit. Some knives are in better shape or in a less poor state of dullness and the 200, 400 or even 600 grit stones will suffice. Observations and the lessons of experiences from sharpening while trying different methods, just what you’re doing, is the best way to figure it all out. As you figure out which methods work best for you and put these all together you will eventually develop your sharpening technique. Which grits you use, with how much applied pressure and the direction of your stone strokes, when and how you string these all together to achieve the results you like is what you’re learning now. Some sharpening strokes are directed in a way simply to make their scratch patterns easier to see your progress and help you know if your efforts are done thoroughly.
The sharpening process is for the most part pretty regimented and about consistency. With time you’ll also learn how to change it up as you adapt it or individualize it to specific sharpening circumstances. That all comes with observations, experiences and a willingness to try or to experiment with different methods. Soon you’ll have a handful of good sharp results under your belt. Then you’ll better be able to judge what works better for you and what has worked less well. You’ll sort it all out and put it all together to refine what’s ultimately to become your basic sharpening technique.
You’ll decide with time and practice when and where to use circular strokes, scrubbing strokes, or any of the other strokes. That’s all up to you and what you need to achieve. The important thing is that you’re aware of the variety of strokes we have at our disposal and you know how and when you can use these. Nothing is really set in stone other than we tend to work from more aggressively to less aggressively using coarser grits first and finishing with finer grits. With time you may seek more refinement for your cutting edges and maybe a better polished feel and appearance. There are additional mediums like strops and various lapping films to help with this.
Enjoy the journey!