Jonny

[Jonny]

Holy crap, so sad these people call themselves a “business”. But i guess it’s in the hands of the business Owner to be educated and aware of the damage they are doing and the (greatly) shortened lifespan of their cutlery.

[Jonny]

You are correct “Tuffy”, I should not demonize a belt sander, just an over-zealous operator.

I just found more of these in the kitchen. There are about 15 ruined knifes. Thank God he didn’t really get to the Chef’s Knives. They are safe and have a nice new edge on them with out all the chips and dings!

Attached some before and after pics. Only spent about 15 minutes on them just to get them usable. Will spend some time on them when I get a minute.

BEFORE

AFTER

And thanks for the kind words on the business 🙂

Attachments:

• IMG_1275.JPG
• IMG_1189.JPG

[Jonny]

Thank you so much for the info, I think I get it but going to spend some time processing the principals you shared. Sorry if i’m beating a dead horse.

May I just ask one question… if you put my Hinderer XM-18 w/a known factory angle of 22 degrees, what degree range would you expect YOUR arms to be at to start in YOUR WE to remove marker properly from the edge?

Thank you for your time.

[Jonny]

Pic #2

Attachments:

• IMG_0133ReSize300.png

[Jonny]

So I just tried to practice mounting a cheap “Kershaw Outcast” style imitation just to see if I could start getting my head around a knife of that length and curvy shape. Not sure if this is right but i split the knife in half and tried to tackle it in two phases (front/rear).

As you can see in pic, right off the bat in the front half i’m at 31 degrees to remove the Sharpie from the edge correctly. Doesn’t that seem very high?… maybe the pics will reveal something.

Attachments:

• IMG_0131ReSize300.png

[Jonny]

Yes, you hit it on the head, factory angle simply not matching arms/cube.

Obviously I’m experiencing either two problems, a set-up problem or all the knives im practicing on are all a bit “off”. I’m getting what I think are high degree readings on ALL knives i’ve practiced on. Most simple folders seem to be in the 18-22ish degree range but i’m always like 25+? I did a test on a kitchen knife which I (i’m obviously no Pro) think should be sub 18 degrees or so and i’m in the 20″s. So again, something seems wrong with set-up.

That’s why I did a light test on the Hinderer as I know the factory angle is 22 degrees and I was hoping a high-end knife would be of close tolerance thus eliminating the “incorrect factory angle problem” redirecting my problem again to set-up… or maybe there’s no problem at all and the difference in degrees is common?

Something just doesn’t seem to be jiving and my angles just seem too high on everything, I keep feeling like it’s a stupid-Noob set-up mistake.

[Jonny]

So sorry, work schedule got crazy, sharpening went on hold but still confused.

@”Wes74″: No, cube and arms match, I guess you’d say “factory angle” and arms/cube DON’T match.

Again, if I mount a knife w/a factory 22 degree angle, my arms are out at about 26 degrees to remove marker from the edge w/the Sharpie test. I was assuming if I mounted a 22 degree edge my arms would be at about 22 degrees accordingly, not at 26 degrees… is that not the case?

Is that common for arms/edge degree to be so far apart but still remove the marker correctly?

That is where i’m confused. Thx.

[Jonny]

Sorry guys, but I have a real problem picking up on what you’re seeing in the clamp set-up in the last photo. I thought I could see that the opening between the two sides was wider at the bottom than the top, so I blew the photo up in a “Photoshop” app, boosted the brightness and the two sides look pretty close to parallel, which would be correct.

Of course the user has to watch carefully to make sure the knife is clamped vertically and is not leaning to one side or the other. I looked at a bunch of photos of Hinderer XM-18 knives and it looks as if all have at least a small amount of flat where they’d be clamped. Ah, but I’m assuming here… My practice is to clamp ALL folding knives with the bolster pushed up against the clamp. I’ll explain that elsewhere.

As the thickness of the blade increases, (say, a machete as opposed to a filet knife) the centerline of the knife (the line that the apex should fall on) moves by one-half of the thickness change. The apex moves away from the fixed side and towards the free side. This means that the angle will increase on the fixed side and decrease on the opposite side. The Hinderer has a thickness of about 0.180″, so the theoretical center of the blade would move 0.090″. But compared to what? I measured a setup with my Buck 110 folding knife.

At the 22 degree detents, I measured 2.66″ horizontally between the center of the ball joints and the center of the blade ( 0.12″ thick”)

I measured 4.85″ vertically between the centerline of the ball joints and the apex of the blade over the center of the vise. This is the adjacent side of my triangle.

I measured a couple of diamond blocks and found them to be about 1.187″ thick, resulting in an offset of 0.594″. This means the base (opposite side) of my triangle is 2.067″.

My Navy training trig says the tangent of my triangle is 2.067 / 4.85 = .426. The included angle (arctangent=0.426) is actually 22.54 degrees. My angle cube says 22.6 degrees. As near as I can see, both sides are identical.

Now if we switch to a Hinderer XM-18, which has a thickness of 0.185″ the vertical centerline of the knife will move 0.033″ to the right. This means that my triangles are no longer identical. Theoretically, the angle on the left becomes 22.9 degrees and the angle on the right becomes 22.2 degrees.

Not enough of a difference to worry about, but if you go to something thicker, the angle change does become a factor. I don’t know if it would be noticeable on the finished knife.

See, i’m getting about 26 degrees on my cube/arms to remove the sharpie from the edge of the Hinderer?

[Jonny]

Tried to get a “straight-on” pic

Attachments:

• IMG_0098ReSize.png

[Jonny]

Good eye on the clamp. As I repositioned the arms I did indeed notice the clamp was way too far out on the bottom and corrected it but still way off (I think) in my angles. I think it looks more out of whack from that photo-angle than it really is but i’ll do some checks.

So not to beat a dead horse but maybe I could just ask about your set-up procedure…

Say you want to sharpen a knife with a 22 degree factory angle and keep that factory angle. You position it in the WE, set angle of arms/stones to 22. Say you did a “sharpie test” as well but marker is removed from bottom of edge. You’re saying you just go ahead with sharpening anyway, “forcing/re-profiling” the edge to YOUR specifications (or 22 degree angle)? So essentially if you did another sharpie test at the end of your session the marker would now be removed from the edge and I guess the knife did not have a true 22 degree angle to start with?

And just FYI, i’m not really practicing on the Hinderer, just doing some light test swipes with a high grit because it’s the one knife where I know the correct factory angle. I have a box of practice knives i’m using.

I’ve done about ten knives and believe it or not they’ve come out pretty good just using the sharpie to match the angle. But the discrepancy between what i’m seeing most edges sharpened at and what MY readings are is bugging me.

Again, it seems like if I have a knife at “X” factory angle and I set my arms to match “X” angle I should be removing marker pretty close to the apex, not the bottom. Is that NOT common?

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!

[Jonny]

So are you saying if I take a knife that has a factory 22 degree angle, set my stones/arms at 22 degrees to match with an angle finder, I should NOT expect to be removing the sharpie at the edge of the edge… or “apex”?

Or, like “TC” says, even though the Hinderer is said to have a factory 22 degree angle, could that not actually be the angle it’s at brand new and I would be actually correcting it… even on a high end knife?

[Jonny]

Thank you so much for the links. I’ve read them and I think my knife position is correct and the other post seems to be dealing with minor angle changes/discrepancies. Mine seem many degrees off.

My Angle Finder indeed matches my arms. When the arm is 22 degrees on the bar, the cube reads 22 degrees. That’s where i’m confused… if I set it at 22 degrees, factory angle on the Hinderer, it would be removing the marker/sharpie literally from the bottom of the edge?

Should I just “trailblaze” and not worry about it, literally re-profiling the edge to the MY angle? I feel like if i’m set at 22 degrees, the factory angle is supposed to be 22 degrees, I should be removing the marker perfectly at the top of the edge, ready to create a burr… no?

Again, if I just used the Sharpie Method on the Hinderer, I am at like 26 degree to remove the marker from the edge and start my burr?

[Jonny]

Thought maybe the problem was in arm set-up. I had “flipped” the arms (as per a suggestion on the forum) to the other side so that the thumbscrews contact the flat side of the bar.

However, I just installed them the normal way, adjusted via the angle cube, then did a test swipe. At 20 degrees on that kitchen knife the marker is no where removed from the edge.

I also did another test on the Hinderer (see pic) and at 22 degrees I am literally scratching the very bottom of the edge? I understand not focusing too much on the factory angle but still seems weird that all the knives I’ve done are at a pretty high angle to reach the edge. Plus the w/Hinderer I know the exact factory angle and I am way off.

Still feel like i’m doing something dumb, something must be wrong.

Attachments:

• IMG_0093ReSize2.png

[Jonny]

Yes.

Place on base, zero, place on top of stone (see pic), lay against edge, test swipe till “edge of edge” is removed.

[Jonny]

Sorry, pics were too big.

Attachments:

• IMG_0088ReSize3.png
• IMG_0090ReSize3.png

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