Why water stones?

[Dennis Gocong]

I experimented by doing both a stropping in between the 2K – 5K progression and after the 8K – 12K progression and found no difference in reflectivity and shine. Granted I did not continue stropping past 40 strokes just to see the final results of each…..end result, no difference. Though I would suspect that if I spent more time on the final stropping process that it would shine up nicely with either progression.

Conclusion, it’s shiny enough for my needs and the edges are wickedly sharp at this point that progressing to smaller uM I’ve reserve for those very special knives. For functional knives, like my everyday kitchen knives, no further progression past the 3.5uM stropping is necessary.

[Phil Pasteur]

I agree that it is typical to strop when you are done with your stone progression. Stropping does different things to the blade independent of the grit size in use. We have seen the the photos, but even more it is intuitive that there will be a bit of convexing of the bevel(not rounding the edge) happening when stropping due to the give in the media. When you go back to the stones you basically remove that,to get back to a flat bevel all of the way to the edge.
It seems a bit couterproductive, doesn’t it? I often go out to the 12K SS which is at about a micron then back to 6 and 3 micron strops (DMT diamond paste) because I like the edge that I get better for many daily use tasks. This probably adds a little micro scratching, but at a macro level the edge is still very mirror like.

Having said that, there is no wrong way to sharpen as long as you are ending up where you want to be.
There can be qautified, by number of strokes required, the more efficient way to get to the same point.
Having to create and then remove a convex micro bevel, likely is not the most efficient way to go.
Also remember, grit size is only one component of what happens when you use abrasives on steel. Often , at least whe using grits sized fairly close together, it is not the most important factor to your results.

Daug try going through your stone progression sometime then going “back’ to your strops. See what you think, and please let us know how it goes.

Phil

Daug, that was my first guess is you were going by grit size. I have looked at the grit comparison chart and see that stopping does more polishing than anything. I was wondering if you “undo” the polish you get after the first stropping with stones but if the next stone is fine enough then I guess not. I had always thought you “finish” with strops and don’t go back to stones.

[Dennis Gocong]

Philip,

I will do just that shortly with some practice knives today and I’ll report back when I’ve completed it….and thanks for the suggestion!

[wickededge]

Phil makes some nice points. There is also a fair argument to be made for using different tools and techniques to shorten the path to removing scratches, and sometimes shaping the bevel at very slightly differing angles can help. The scratches you’re trying to remove have a specific depth and the goal is to eventually get to the bottom of the deepest ones, hopefully by abrading away the ridges until you get to the “valley floor.” Using a crosshatch pattern works well because you can attack the ridges from their cross sections, which is good because you have less metal to push and the apex of the ridges is more fragile. A similar affect can be achieved along the length of the ridge if you create some faceting or even a slight curvature, which the strops will do. It’s like sawing a log; after the first bit of progress through the cut, the blade has to cut through ever more material and it’s helpful to change the angle of attack slightly, lessening the contact area and creating a new vertex within the length of the cut. Changing the angle again makes it easy to focus all the force of the teeth on the new vertex and you quickly reduce it while also creating two new vertices, which are then easier to attack. I found using this technique is often helpful in getting to the “valley floor” more quickly. Incidentally, I found that taking advantage of the slight play in the old arms was helpful in the same way because I could easily change the angle of attack by adjusting where on the stones I was putting pressure. Once I’d gotten to the proper depth, I’d just change my stone holding technique back to applying pressure consistently and I’d have a nicely polished, flat bevel.

-Clay

[Dennis Gocong]

Philip,

I will do just that shortly with some practice knives today and I’ll report back when I’ve completed it….and thanks for the suggestion!

————————————-

………..

Daug try going through your stone progression sometime then going “back’ to your strops. See what you think, and please let us know how it goes.

Phil

[/quote]

Ok, just completed several practice knives (Butcher knife and Machete) this weekend to see if I can answer some of the question posed by Phil. First off my goal was not only to functionally sharpen these knives, but to see if I could get them to a polished finished without stropping, and then to try it with a final stropping step. Here’s the summation of the progression for the knives that where sharpened:

The 1st progression would be going from, 1) –> 2)
The 2nd progression would go from, 1) –> 3)
The 3rd progression would go from, 1) –> 2) –> 4)
The 4th progression would go from, 1) –> 3) –> 4)

1) Diamond Plate;
100 – general profiling, burr development
200 – burr development
400 – progression
600 – progression
800 – progression
1K – final progression, dull scratched finish, but otherwise very sharp at this point

2) Wet Stone I; custom platen
2K – Naniwa Super Stone, polishing
5K – Naniwa Super Stone, polishing

3) Wet Stone II; custom platen
8000 – Shaptons, polishing
12000 – Shaptons, polishing

4) Strop; Balsa wood paddle
5um – Diamond paste, final polishing
3.5 – Diamond paste, final polishing

I did not take pictures during this process, and I’m sure it would have been helpful when describing these finishes, but hey….I don’t even know how to attached them to this thread yet. So will have to do it next time once I’ve learned how.

Progression through the diamond plates were routine from re-profiling, then cutting, and final sharpening took no time at all. Progression through the diamond plates took no more than 45 min. at most to complete. My diamond plates, I can say, are well broken in by now with the resultant edges as wickedly sharp and toothy at this point.

The progressions through the Naniwa wet stones [2] was done wet, and more importantly the development of a black slurry was imperative for the polishing process. Amazingly enough, I think at this point the Naniwa stones finally did break in after 10 min. of wetting and slurry making, and I was able to polish the first knife’s edge (Butcher knife) to a beautiful smooth shine at the 2K grit. There were areas that were cloudy at first, but adjusting the angles made quick work of those dull areas when I first wiped off the slurry, but with each passing stoke it was getting brighter and shiner than I’ve ever gotten them before. Mind you this is even without the stropping process. The 5K wet stone was done the same way; wet it down, develop a slurry, and polish lightly or with pressure (as you see fit) to finally get at the deeper scratches. Shine was all there, and no stropping required.

The progression through the Shapton wet stone [3] was done the same way as [2]; wet the stone, develop a slurry, and polish away. It took 2-3x longer to get a polish shine on the Machete blade and I attribute this more to the jump required to go from the 1K diamond plate then to the 8K wet stones ability to remove the deep scratched that the 1K plates left behind. When it finally shined, the shine was pretty bright with the Shaptons and it was a lot smoother in final finish with less scratches than the Naniwa’s, but overall the Naniwa’s cut very quickly and effectively throughout this experiment.

I was very pleased with both stones in terms of the end state of the blades being polished. The Naniwa’s are quicker in terms of cutting power for sure, but the shine of the Shapton’s are definitely less scratchy (as I would expect).

Then finally went to the stropping stage [4] for both blades, and I’ve got to say that it definitely is not required at this point, since both blades were extremely sharp, and both very polished……but for the sake of this experiment I continued. Stropping with the 5 um balsa paddle did scratch up the finished shines of both blades. Progressing to the 3.5um diamond paste made both blades scary sharp, but it took quite a bit of time to smooth out the scratches. When it was finally done, it was shiny again and now much more scary sharp than before.

Conclusion: Bottom line the wet stones themselves will work to get me the sharpest edge and polish that I want. Stropping at some of these grit level does not seem necessary, but it does look to me like I don’t have enough stropping range to make a conclusive argument to strop or not to strop further. The same can be said of each stone brand in my kit. I don’t have enough of either the Naniwa or Shaptons to say conclusively which is best, but each provides enough range to progress with polishing and sharpening to my desired affect.

So am I done, no not really…..I would love to get more range of Naniwa stones for sure after this rest. but the Shapton’s make me curious what it would be like to have the lower grits to progress through. Then ultimately, I would like to experiment with stropping with the Kangaroo leather with smaller grit sizes to see the final affect. But for now at least I know I have the materials to get that polished look that I’m looking for.

This experiment was fun, but it took a long time to get here….but more importantly I learned a lot of things about the capability of the WEPS PP1 system and it made me proud to own one.

[cbwx34]

Nice writeup… I like the way you documented it.

I’m curious why you didn’t consider doing a progression thru the Naniwas and Shaptons… a 1-> 2-> 3 before (or without) stropping? Seems that with the grit levels you have in each, this would be a natural progression.

[Dennis Gocong]

….because in post #6234 of this thread, I do use it as my natural progression that I go through (sometimes with stropping, most times without), so I didn’t see the need to re-do that task again. Besides, I do state in my conclusion that I do have the range of grit size from 2k – 12k, to complete the polishing task, but I would still be curious to find out how any blade would turn out with just exclusively Naniwa’s and/or Shapton’s. Regardless the expense to do that would require me to save up some….but at least I know my current grit range will be enough for my needs.

[cbwx34]

Ahhhh… thanks… didn’t catch your earlier post.

[Scott]

I have another question regarding all this polishing and burnishing. I must qualify my question by saying that I am still in the very early stages of learning how to most effectively use my full set of stones.

I was finally able to get a very polished edge using my ceramics without even going to the leathers. What I mean by “very polished” is that without looking at the knife edge (shoulder) under magnification, I can put the knife edge on a piece of paper at an angle that allows me to see printed words in the reflection (on the shoulder of the edge) quite clearly. To the uninitiated, it looks for all the world like a mirror. Now, I know that under microscopic examination, there are scratches, but in practical terms, it is very, very polished and reflective.

Also, it only takes a few uses before visible scratching occurs and it needs to be worked on again to bring it back to the visibly clear unscratched finish. So this scratch free finish on my knife is a bit fragile at this point (I am using a s30v blade for reference)

I think my knives look beautiful with the mirror finish I have achieved and I totally get the pursuit of the mirror finish. But I am wondering if some of this conversation is driven by pursuit of a finish that can only be appreciated under extreme microscopic examination, or are you needing all the very high grit stones or very low grit pastes and sprays to get to an acceptable mirror finish (acceptable meaning visibly mirror like reflectivity as seen by the unaided naked eye) or are you seeking microscopic perfection.

Also, I find it interesting that when I achieve that mirror smooth finish and lightly run my finger or finger nail along the edge, it is also perfectly smooth to my touch. So it is not just the shoulder that is smooth and shiny, but the edge too. A very different cutting edge and one might argue not as practical in real world knife cutting terms.

I am in no way criticizing anyone trying to get to a “perfect edge”. I get it. I am also trying to perfect my technique and appreciate all the great dialogue here. I’m just wondering if you folks are not able to get to the shiny mirror finish without using all these whetstones and extreme micro grit polishing sprays or are you seeking something more like a perfect mirror finish only detectible under a microscope? I guess what might be more accurately described as a scientifically perfect edge.

[Phil Pasteur]

I can’t answer for anyone save myself. When I indulge my OCD (more of a rarity recently), I am aiming for that scientificaly perfect edge. The thinest edge that the steel will support, and no visible scratches under high magnification (Clay has gotten some blades so smooth that scratches are not detectable with 800X. That would do for me…)
🙂

Of course this kind of edge is not practical for most uses that a knife would be employed for in real life. It is typically fragile, and, as you noted, takes very little use before it becomes scratched.

In this case, the goal is simply being able to get there. The more you get into smaller and smaller abrasives, the more the laws of diminishing returns applies. Many times the cost in tools and time spent for a few percent “improvement” at the edge.

So why do I do it… you know the answer… Because I can..and want to.
I like carrying a super polished, hair popping,treetopping, HHT passing, pattern push cutting blade to show off… I get sharpening jobs that way 🙂

When I am going to take a knife into the field… or even my backyard, 1K to maybe 2K with 6 micron stropping, gets me where I want to be.

BTW, I intend to try the superfine ceramics (1200 or maybe 1600) for a microbevel after the 1K diamonds as Clay suggested to see how that works with no stropping… that may be my new “standard” if it works as well for me as it has for him.

I must admit though, most of my utility blade sharpening, and jobs where folks don’t want to pay for the precision of the WEPS (and time that it takes)I do on a belt grinder. 240, 600, grit belts then HF1 and jewelers rouge on leather… well under 10 minutes and a very sharp knife.

If you are happy with the edges that you are getting, there is not much reason to buy more stuff..

Phil

Phil

[Scott]

I think you summed it up well Phil. It’s a bit like the greyhound that catches the mechanical rabbit. Once they catch it they are not nearly as interested in chasing it.

I still love using the different stones to get different levels of refinement on my various blades. But as you say there is a rule of diminishing return where the cost and effort vs the appearance and utility of the cutting edge must be balanced.

I am not sure how many knives I will get out of my pastes. I think I read in a post by Clay somewhere that he estimated about 50 blades on one application before he had to re-apply more paste. I have new leather strops and they seem pretty smooth, so I think I may have to re-apply paste more often than that to get the desired effect. It seems to kind of wipe off when I polish my blades.

If I have to continuously order more pastes, the hassle and expense factor may make me less likely to do so. I think I can achieve a good mirror like finish going from micro fine to kangaroo with no paste for what I need.

Just sharing my thoughts here and would find yours interesting as well for discussion.

[Phil Pasteur]

Just a quick thought..
Don’t use too much paste. I did at first…it just made a gummy mess and came off on the blades. A huge waste!!
In this case, less is more. Just a thin layer, thin enough to sort of see the leather through, is better.
You almost just want the abrasive in the pores of the leather. I put half the tube on the first time. A disaster. I had to resurface the strops to get rid of it and start over. Those syringes will last a very long time if you apply it right…

We are way off topic for a waterstones thread… you are wandering.
🙂

Phil

[Scott]

You’re right. I should have started a new thread, apologies.

[Phil Pasteur]

Scott asked the question either in this thread or eleswhere about “improvements” uisng the Choseras specifically 5K and 10K after the Ceramic WEPS Microfine stones.

I have a Spyderco Damascus Mule Team 07 that I just put a Goboon Ebony handle on..with grey liners… very nice. So I wanted a real nice shiny edge. Having just got the 4 ceramis from WEPS a week or so ago, I wnted to try just using the diamonds and the 4 ceramic stones. I went through the progression and added about twice the number of strokes that I normally do. I ended up with a very nice sharp edge that was reflective enough to show phone book print pretty well. It just wasn’t reflective enough though…comparing it to knives that I have done with the Choseras. I went back and started with the 2K/3K Choseras. About 50 strokes at each grit and the difference in reflectivity is truly amazing. The Choseras simply out polish the Ceramics. In addition after all of the extra strokes with the Ceramics. there was still a sort of mat background and easily visible with no magnification were lots of very fine scratches. I call it reflective, but not a mirror edge.

Scott, I can’t say that the Choseras will make a knofe sharper than the Ceramics, but if you are looking for a pretty edge, as I was with the Mule, there is just not any comparison.It is all in the results that you want I guess.

BTW this was the second knife I tried this with . The Damascus has a VG1 core, I also did a Mule in BCTS-B75P…supposed to be similar to BG42. The results were very close to the same. I left the B75P knife with the Cermaics edge …and stropped lightly with 6 micron paste on leather… A very nice cutting edge I think, but not nearly as shiny.

Phil

[Geocyclist]

Thanks Phil, this is what i am looking for. Interesting results.

[Author]

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