Trying out the new setup -.WE F&S pro
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I just got my new wicked edge Field & Stream Pro system. Kyle helped me out with my order and was a pleasure to work with.
My initial impression of the system was “this cost that much?”… Anyway, I finished unboxing everything and set it up. It felt solid, so I did a once-over the instruction manual (which was very nice).
I went ahead and clamped my first knife in. I initially had some problems grinding the base others had with the steak knives I started with. I increased the angle to avoid scratching the clamps anymore.
I was impressed with the results I had even for a first try, especially compared to what I had done on whetstones (I’m not very good with those, and by not very good, I mean terrible).
As I was moving through the stones, I got to 1000 grit. One of the stones felt like it was grinding again like the 400. I swapped the stones to the other side to make sure it wasn’t the knife.
I then moved to the 1500 grit and everything was smooth again. Is that normal and the stones just need to be broken in more?
I then moved to a Santoku and was trying to put a 12.5* edge on it. I got the LAA adapter setup and dialed in at about 13*. I started going through the stones and got to the 1000 grit only to realize it had moved in the clamp. I reset it and started again. Same thing, I got going in my rythym for a few minutes and noticed it moved again. I thought I had it tight enough both times. I really like the main clamp, unfortunately though, I am going to need the LAA for the knives I care most about. A little disappointed..
Jay, look at the stone. They are hand mounted, you could be exactly right and the wrong grit may have gotten glued down. Also look to see the stone was mounted/glued flat down in the rectangular frame. Possibly it’s up on one end and not riding flat against the bevel. Another thing, try to slowly use/slide that 1000 grit stone, across the bevel and listen and feel for the area of roughness and noise, along the stone. Mark it with a tab of tape or similar method. Then remove it and examine the surface, magnified if possible, at that position for a rough clump or agglomeration of diamonds. It may be very small and easily removed with a quick bump against the opposite stone. It may be the wrong grit, or bad and defective and need replacing.
Marc
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J Ackerman: I’m not sure why you’re focused on such low angles. After six and a half years of sharpening with my WEPS, I finally needed this past fall to do one blade at an angle less than 15 degrees per side. By far, most of my sharpening is between 17 and 21 dps, with the majority at 20. In fact, I use 20 dps as sort of a default angle for my in-house knives, so I don’t have to look up special settings. Except for filet knives and skinners, I sharpen all of my family and friends’ knives to 20 dps as well.
Generally speaking, most knife steels are not hard enough to resist dings and dents from misuse. Those which are hard enough tend to be brittle and subject to chipping along the edge. All this is exacerbated by more acute angles. My ZDP-189 knives from Spyderco (approx. HRC-64) both seem to chip easily when sharpened to 17 dps. Much less so at 19 or 20 dps.
That said, there are those special cases where low angles are appropriate, particularly in kitchen knives, but the users should be highly disciplined in the use and care of these wonderful knives.
Steak knives in restaurants are almost always serrated; not because they cut steaks better, but to keep the sharp edges from touching the hard surface of the plates. My Wuesthofs are hard enough to hold an edge in the face of such (ab)use. I suspect they are harder than most kitchen knives, as they seem to hold an edge for a long time, even when used almost every day. What angle? 20 dps.
Please also keep in mind that sharpening knives to angles below about 18 dps will take quite a bit longer as there is much more steel to be removed.
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I basically bought the WE to keep my kitchen knives sharp and maybe sharpen some for friends and family. The Wusthof set I have all have 14 dps except the Santoku which is 10 dps. I have two shuns that the specs show 16 (Santoku and boning). And I just recently got a miyabi Santoku that is 9-12 dps.
For the Santoku I was using first it was my mom’s cuisinart that the specs showed 10-15 dps. I just targeted 12.5 dps since it was in the middle of the range. Maybe I got the wrong system?
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J, I really suggest you mount the knives and use the sharpie when you sharpen or touch them up the first time. I have a set of Wusthofs, a Shun Santoku, and had three Miyabi Birdwoods in SG-2 (very hard steel). Yes I remember the Miyabi’s stats were very acute. They sure weren’t at that angle when I measured the bevel and observed them with the USB Microscope. The Miyabis, in my experience were pretty ragged in appearance for a knife touted as “The worlds sharpest knife”. They did cut well though. The only knife that was in reality at the written specs was the Shun. It was dead-on 16º per side. The other knives no where near it. I don’t know where they get the specs. Maybe right at the tip. When I tried to sharpen my Miyabi’s to 14º per side, (a number I chose myself), the bevels crumbled and feel off. I experienced what Tom suggested in his post above. I returned/exchanged them for a different Zwillings-Henckel collection.
I remember it was back when I first got my Pro Pack 2 WEPS, around 4-5 years ago. I was exactly in your shoes, posting on this Forum. “What angle should I profile my Wusthof’s to”? I had the same, (sales catalog) stats as you. I even after interaction with Forum members contacted Wusthof via e-mail. Wusthof responded 14º per side. My fellow WEPS users said no way, won’t work. It could not be 14º. It spurred a lot of discussion then just like now. When I put them on the vice I followed the suggestions. I believe they were between 18º and 20º depending on the style knife. Don’t know why or how they come up with their figures.
When you look at the bevel height if it’s very small it’s not a low angle like less that 16. The Shun’s at 16º per side have a tiny short bevel on the edge of a very tapered grind. When you get lower and lower angle bevels the bevels get larger and larger, (more vertical or parallel to the knifes up-down shape) and require more metal removal. The first time you wear out a lower angle bevel and chip the edge it will force you to flatten the edge and start all over again, you’ll be sharpening up on the shoulder, if the knife is very narrow.
I suggest you worry less about numerical stats and take the knives one at a time. Take your time finding the best clamping position and the sweet spot. Use the sharpies the first time. Match the original angle and determine the angle yourself by measuring the stone angle when it obliterates the sharpie covered bevel.
Use the knives after you’ve sharpened them at those found or determined angles first and see how well they behave and stand-up. You can always take metal away, the next time. You can not put it back!
One last thing. I have over 50 kitchen/chef’s knives in my collection. I have only used my low angle adapter a few times in 5 years using the WEPS. I believe that was mostly on small folding knives. My big $$$ fancy ass steel Japanese hand-made Gyuto’s are only 15º – 17º per side. They cut and slice extraordinarily well. To look at their new factory edge under magnification it was nothing to write home about. Just average and ragged. My point is if those knives cut that well. Then your knives at those same broader angles finished with the precision and accuracy that the WEPS allows should out perform the knives when they were new.
Go slow and steady. you can’t put metal back.
Marc
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I sometimes wondered if what we believe are the bevel angles these knife makers are stating, (the edge specs), are really the angle of the primary grind as it is measured relative to a perpendicular through the center of the knife. A few times in an attempt to thin a knife’s shoulder in the Wicked Edge. I set up a kitchen knife at 11 or 12º using the LAA. The grind marks I imparted to the knife were well behind the bevel and edge and up on the shoulder. This suggests those numbers were hearing like 10º for a Santoku may indeed be the primary grind angle???
Marc
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Greetings all,
I to have not experienced an edge that was what was advertised. I’ve done a couple sets of Zwilling/Henckels that were as close as any. Wusthof advertises 14 degs., 10 for Santoku and Z/H at 15 deg. and 10. The henckels were pretty close at between 16 to 18 deg. but the Santoku was around 15 degs. and not 10. 10 deg. is approaching straight razor angles and will not hold up on anything tougher than tomatoes. At that angle they won’t even hold up to chopping on a cutting board very long. I sharpened both sets of Z/H’s at 15 with a 17 micro, santokus at 13/15 and they seem to be holding up well.
I think that 20 deg. makes a good edge and is what I use most often(17/20 micro) on others knives for hunting, edc’s and pocket knives, but I tend to sharpen most kitchen knives at 15/17 micro with the exception of utility and paring knives and those I do at 17/20 micro for the most part. I use the micro bevel on most of the edges I do anymore. I feel it provides a sharper feel than a straight V, a more durable edge than the acute bevel left alone and makes the knives more forgiving on a steel or strop. The 15/17 and 17/20 angles are the ones I use on 90% or more of the knives that I do.
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Thanks all, for the advice! I tried to redo a few knives today with much better results based on the suggestions. One problem I had with the marker method was that the knives I was doing today, I had already reduced the angle on the bevel a good bit with the whetstones. Therefore, I couldn’t really trust what I was seeing since it wasn’t stock.
I just used the research, which sounds like the info on angles provided by the makers is all over the place.
I ended up getting one side settled in at 17.25* and the other at about 17.30* (I didn’t figure out the micro adjustment until later ?).
I figured out the micro adjustment for the Santoku and dialed it in @ 13.5*. I never really got a burr at that angle and it it didn’t pass the paper test (must not have removed enough metal at that point, as Tom was saying). I then went to 14.5* and got a burr pretty quickly (I guess I have a double bevel now) I went through the different stones and could shave with it, it felt like. It passed the paper test too.
I was slicing an apple in thin slices, and it seemed like it was slightly tougher to break the skin of the Apple (could be my imagination though, I guess).
I kind of wish I hadn’t gotten the LAA now.
I figured out the micro adjustment only after the nut on the end kept falling off. I would tighten it on the screw that was sticking out and then I would look down after 30 or so passes and it had loosened or fallen off (changing the angle). Am I doing something wrong?
@Marc – I checked my 1000 grit stone and it looked to be on straight. I also rubbed them together and that seemed to help a bit. The sound still seems a little different, but better than before (grinding). I can’t really tell much difference in the grit by feel.
On the Shun knives I have, the bevel is very hard to see as you mentioned. Should I just put it on 16* and go with it? I think I might get frustrated using the marker technique on it. Btw, is the bevel so small because the shoulder is thinner?
Thanks again, everyone for all the help! Good info!
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J don’t rub those diamond stones together to much it’s not good for them. I meant only that specific spot where you saw or felt the clump of diamonds. J It sounds like you need a magnifying device to help you to see what your doing. There are lighted jeweler type loupes, hand magnifiers and inexpensive USB Microscopes. All are very helpful and hard to go with out once you’ve used them.
Maybe take your time and work on less different knives and pay more attention to detail to learn the ropes of your Wicked Edge. Get one knife just how you like it before taking on the next one. You will have use for the LAA. Don’t sweat buying it. Work out a routine that includes all the steps to insure your knife is clamped tight and securely and the angle adjustment is set, tight and securely locked. This will become part of your routine or technique. This is a very repetitious matter, sharpening knives. Precision and accuracy require repetition.
For the Shun, yes the bevel is small because the knife is ground thin and narrow at the knife edge. Also a 16º bevel is smaller than say a 12º bevel on the same profile knife. The Shun does widen as you get closer to the shoulder, and as you remove metal, so try to use very light touch/pressure when sharpening your knives to avoid removing more material then is necessary.
Slow down my friend. Take your time, it’s not a race.
Marc
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Hello J,
You are not sharpening until you reach the apex of the edge! Until that point you are re-profiling or just removing metal no matter what the angle. It takes longer to apex a blade at 13 deg. than it does at 20 deg. and the apex is much more fragile at 13 than 20 as well. If you are sharpening at 15 deg. and not able to slice the skin on a tomato or apple without reservation then something went wrong for sure.
Sounds to me that you are well on your way to getting the results your looking for and when you don’t, looking for answers and correcting what went wrong.
The LAA is a great and essential tool for me. I use it the most for knives with a “swept” blade such as a chefs knife. By raising the blade you widen the arc and make it easier to match thearc of the blade to the arc of the stone. Don’t be sorry you have it, it’s a great tool even if you don’t need it much at the moment. It will prove to be a valuable tool.
I think 16 deg. on your Shun will work great. If you haven’t started it yet try 15 deg. and after you finish with the last stone move angle to 17 and VERY lightly make 10 to 15 passes at 17. Then strop with no more than 20 passes with each side of the strop with the angle set at 14 deg. If you try that method let me know what you get for a result.
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J don’t rub those diamond stones together too much it’s not good for them. I meant only that specific spot where you saw or felt the clump of diamonds. J It sounds like you need a magnifying device to help you to see what your doing. There are lighted jeweler type loupes, hand magnifiers and inexpensive USB Microscopes. All are very helpful and hard to go with out once you’ve used them. Maybe take your time and work on less different knives and pay more attention to detail to learn the ropes of your Wicked Edge. Get one knife just how you like it before taking on the next one. You will have use for the LAA. Don’t sweat buying it. Work out a routine that includes all the steps to insure your knife is clamped tight and securely and the angle adjustment is set, tight and securely locked. This will become part of your routine or technique. This is a very repetitious matter, sharpening knives. Precision and accuracy require repetition. For the Shun, yes the bevel is small because the knife is ground thin and narrow at the knife edge. Also a 16º bevel is smaller than say a 12º bevel on the same profile knife. The Shun does widen as you get closer to the shoulder, and as you remove metal, so try to use very light touch/pressure when sharpening your knives to avoid removing more material then is necessary. Slow down my friend. Take your time, it’s not a race.
So, I have had some time over the last several days to sharpen a few more knives. I have been able to put a consistent edge that can shave paper on some even poor quality knives.
After doing about 4 or 5 more knives, I am still getting more “scrubbing” (best way to describe it) on one of the 1000 grit paddles and not the other. I can’t tell visually any difference between the two like I can compared to the 100/200, but there definitely seems to be a difference.
I just decided to skip the 1000 grit and go to the 1500 grit, so it would be consistent.
Overall, I am impressed with the results I am getting though.
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J, maybe there is a defect on the 1000 grit paddle. I’d phone Wicked Edge. Maybe they will replace it. My preference would not be to jump from 800 grit to 1500 grit on a normal regular basis. In your situation where you’re, just learning, and trying to determine if the “bad”1000 grit is keeping you from achieving the results you’re looking for then definitely, have at it! Skip the 1000 and see if the 1500 helps. Also, I get my truly sharpest edges after I finish with the diamond stones, wipe the steel clean to remove any sharpening debris, then strop the edges with the Wicked Edge Leather Strops.
Marc
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Cool, thanks for the advice! I sharpened a couple more today… when I was closing the clamp with the lever, I recently started hearing a pop from the mechanism when it was about 75% closed. Is that normal? It was almost like it was in a bind and I don’t want to break it.
My new vice was got a little sticky after a few knives when I was breaking in some new stones. The new stones can throw off a lot dust and metal filings due to their losing some loose diamond material as they break in and also they’re a little rougher than the broken-in stones so there may be more metal filings created.
I disassembled the vice from the base then dismantled the vice for cleaning and lubrication. Here is a downloadable PDF , done by Forum member Graphite, showing the pictures of a step by step disassembly of the vice with a written explanation. It’s a good idea to download and save the pdf for future reference. You may find your square “cam follower” may benefit from a little smoothing around the edges. I use a sheet of fine grit sand paper. Once reassembled it worked better and quieter then new.
You can’t break it using it as it is. It’s a very sturdy piece of equipment so don’t worry about that.
Marc
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