The “Organic” Stones
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I’ve been devouring topics as fast as I can and MarcH raised a point I was interested in specifically; the use of WE paddle mounted Shaptons and Chosera whetstones. For some reason I still feel attached to using these “organic” stones on my blades but I’ve no real understanding what the basis of that desire is or if using the WE diamond stone system obviates their use. I’ll simply ask why experienced Edgers with similar interest use these. Does the metal of the blade have a bearing here? or is it the finish in particular? These are not cheap stones when mounted on WE handles but I’m inclined to invest in a few handles in the higher grits/smaller microns. I do realize that in some respects the stones I mentioned aren’t really “Organic” in that they aren’t naturally quarried but I think most readers get the picture in that as whetstones they wear as slurry is created during sharpening
PS I’m really sorry to hammer this particular forum with questions but there is so much to learn.
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That is the purpose of the forum Nickededge, to answer questions…For me, especially when it’s obvious your questions stem from your independent reading of earlier Forum topics and posts, I’m happy to answer them. I’m not sure if you had a specific question or just wonder why we use these stones. For me, I use Shapton Stones, in particular Shapton Glass Stones. I did start with Shapton Pro Stones then switched to the Glass when they were made available to Wicked Edge users. I have never personally used Chosera so I can only share about them what I have learned through reading and viewing videos.
The observed scratched patterns are more consistent with the Shaptons then with diamond stones. That is more even spaced and even depth within the grits across the entire stones surface. Then as you progress from lower to higher grits the progression is still consistent. The results I see is less deep scratches and closer spaced together scratch lines as I increase grits. Sort of a fluid and predictable progression. I seldom find the need to step back down a grit to obliterate left over scratches from the previous grits.
Using water to lubricate the whetstones seems to help with their abrasive action. The Shaptons only require a quick spritz and don’t work by creating a mud stone slurry like the Choseras so the Shaptons aren’t very messy to use. The Shaptons have a very wide grit rang so I’m covered almost completely with grits from very coarse to very very fine with out the need to utilize any other medium. Also the very very fine Shaptons polish very similarly to diamond lapping films and have comparable grits and particle size.
The Shaptons are expensive to get into. They are a consumable stone similar to Diamond Lapping films although they last a very long time. They can break if dropped. They do require maintenance to keep them flat as they wear thinner and belly as they’re used. I flatten them using the “Shaptons Glass Diamond Lapping Plate” that results in incredibly flat WE Shapton Stone Handles. They are more work, to use, and require more care to use, then using a more typical route to sharpen with your Wicked Edge Precision Sharpener. I can’t say that I get a better edge with them then with using the more typical route to sharpen but I do get incredible sharp edges.
I do believe there are some steels that are easier to sharpen with whetstones then with a dry diamond stone. I do believe with these steels I see less edge and micro chipping caused by sharpening when using the whetstones.
Marc
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I think that’s exactly why I think the whetstones are more consistent. I don’t know exactly how they’re made but I believe they’re a compressed and heated product of a ceramic like material comprised of very homogenous particle size slurry. They are what they are and require no break-in. The Choseras need to form the muddy slurry on the surface to exert their effect. The Shaptons are more like a file or sandpaper with the abrasive right on the surface.
Marc
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so the Shapton Glass are more like the WE diamonds in that their (very resilient) abrasive is on the surface as opposed to a homogenous matrix that runs throughout the “depth” of the stone?
No, they are like a diamond with the abrasive right at the surface but they are also homogenous with the grit running through the entire thickness of the stone. As they wear and develop low areas or bellies in the level of the stone’s surface as the homogenous matrix is eroded by the stones abrasive action against the steel knife, they can be rejuvenated by lapping them back to a smooth flat surface with the Diamond Glass Lapping Stones, in the case of the Shapton Glass Stones or with Diamond Plate Lapping Stones for the other brands. Of course they are flattened by removing and sacrificing the high spots to bring them down even and level with the low areas, thus they’re consumable. All the whetstones are like this, both Choseras and Shaptons, they’ll wear and get thinner as you use them up.
Marc
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Okay I think I have it… The abrasive runs through a glass like matrix which does wears slowly down (but much slower than a typical whetstone). As a splash and go theses stones do not require being soaked to assist in the release of the abrasive and therefore the formation of a slurry to do the cutting. I seem to recall seeing these stones being wetted periodically during the sharpening process and I assume its to keep the stone’s abrasive surface exposed and free of cuttings?
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The abrasive runs through a glass like matrix which does wears slowly down (but much slower than a typical whetstone). As a splash and go theses stones do not require being soaked to assist in the release of the abrasive and therefore the formation of a slurry to do the cutting.
George, I do not know anything about the speed and wearability of one brand or type whetstone VS another. I have only used the Shaptons, (Pro Stones and Glass Diamond Stones). I don’t actually know if they wear any faster or much slower than any other brand whetstones. The Shapton Glass do show their wear particularly when sharpening the very hard “Japanese Super Stainless Steels”, requiring them to be lapped after only a couple knives to keep them flat and level.
Marc
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I think that’s exactly why I think the whetstones are more consistent. ….The Choseras need to form the muddy slurry on the surface to exert their effect.
Clay’s way ahead of my questions Marc. By about seven years I’d say! Lol. A YouTube vid from 2011 where he uses and chats about the Naniwa Choseras that they apparently offered at that time (but no longer do). I think, by extension, his comments about whetstones support/supplement your responses and my own resulting epiphany.
Clay Uses and Discusses Choseras on a Shun Nakiri
Too bad they didn’t shoot the video from the bevel side of that usubu blade, would have been fascinating to see. Love to have them revisit that particular blade and reshoot from working side more or less start to finish. BTW loved the Curry Custom Knives (?) video/chanel you linked on a recent stropping piece. I like the guy even though he doesn’t think he’s very technically adept at doing the videos, he gets his points across just fine.
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Last month I revived my rusted out Sugimoto No.6 cleaver and put an edge with the WE diamond stones. Under magnification the blade was micro chipped so I switched to Chosera whetstone. The chips totally disappeared! I don’t know why but the virgin carbon steel didn’t like diamond.
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Thanks Peter, well thats an interesting observation/experience. Makes you wonder if the abrasive slurry didn’t add a bit of something to help smooth those out.
I just pulled the trigger on my WE130 system with the xtra 800 and ultra fine 1000 diamond set…but there is a nexus with your story…I love my “organics” so I’m going to be adding a few Choseras mounted on WE handles in the higher grits as well as a couple of Shapton Glass Stones…All in good time of course…the initial bank account bite out required to suit up was a bit painful and I’m suffering from a dose of buyers remorse this morning! lol
Elizabeth at WE support did mention that it might be a week before they could ship but I’m crossing my fingers and hoping that it will be sooner than later!
Interesting… I’ve thought long and hard in trying to understand the nuances of diamond platens versus waterstones and strops. I think that the difference is the fact that with diamond platens, the diamond bits are solidly anchored to the platen. Rubbing them across a steel object results in a cutting effect, where the diamonds are literally cutting grooves in the steel. When they approach the very edge, there is a drop in the strength of the steel and larger bits can and will be broken off. With waterstones and strops, however, don’t necessarily cut into the steel. Instead, they “burnish” the surface of the steels. The abrasive bits are not solidly anchored, so instead of cutting, they rub along the surface of the steel and/or (as in the case of waterstones’ slurry) even roll between the abrasive backing and the targeted steel surface. Burnishing by itself tends to flatten the irregularities on the surface of the steel, as opposed to machining the surface as in the case of solidly anchored abrasives. Clearly, waterstones do more than just burnishing the surface of the steel. There are some abrasive bits that are solidly anchored, thereby cutting at least some steel away, while the slurry helps to burnish the surface and act as a lubricant at the surface/abrasive interface.
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