Standard arms

[wickededge]

I don’t personally find it to be a problem but do recognize that others do, hence the option to send yours in for us to mod, if you’re not satisfied with the arms as they are.

Thanks Clay, if there was an option to add this service to the shopping basket or simply order it through a dealer this would be great.

Perhaps a leaflet in the WEPS box?

Is there a cost involved?[/quote]

We charge fifteen dollars for the MOD. I like the idea of adding the option to shopping basket and I’ll explore it.

The reality is that there will always be room for improvement with the machine, just as you went on to explore even better ball joints and some modifications to the ergonomics which sound very interesting. I definitely listen to those ideas and keep an eye on making the sharpener the best I can. Sometimes the innovations take a while to roll out, from concept, through design and prototyping to actual production and then apparently recall 🙂 since all the other parts of the business need attention too.

-Clay

[wickededge]

I don’t personally find it to be a problem but do recognize that others do, hence the option to send yours in for us to mod, if you’re not satisfied with the arms as they are.

Thanks Clay, if there was an option to add this service to the shopping basket or simply order it through a dealer this would be great.

Perhaps a leaflet in the WEPS box?

Is there a cost involved?[/quote]

We charge fifteen dollars for the MOD. I like the idea of adding the option to shopping basket and I’ll explore it.

The reality is that there will always be room for improvement with the machine, just as you went on to explore even better ball joints and some modifications to the ergonomics which sound very interesting. I definitely listen to those ideas and keep an eye on making the sharpener the best I can. Sometimes the innovations take a while to roll out, from concept, through design and prototyping to actual production and then apparently recall 🙂 since all the other parts of the business need attention too.

-Clay

[Gary Crumb]

I’m going to agree with Phil and Bob here, as well. I probably should have noted in my first answer that I modify almost everything I own to improve it in some way. It’s almost an obsession since I love to tinker. Not that there was anything wrong with the arms when they came, there wasn’t. I had seen a few vids on YouTube with a few of the mods that people were doing before I actually bought mine. Jdavis being one of those uploaders that convinced me to buy as well. I had stumbled on to his sharpening vids and enjoyed his insights. I have since learned to trust the community here also since they have been extremely helpful on all fronts and have a lot more experience than I do.
Anyway, I used my stock arms through a few knives to get a feel for the system and gain some proficiency with the system so when I did modify it, I had a baseline to use to see if it actually made a difference. The modifications did make a difference, but if I hadn’t used it before making those changes, I wouldn’t have been able to tell the difference, because the difference it made was so small. Technique will make much more of an improvement in your edges. While you’re still breaking stones in, which you probably will be for a few knives still, the washer modification won’t really make any appreciable difference, especially while the system is still so new to you. My stones (well, diamonds) are just starting to get where I feel like they are really broken in, and I’ve run at least 50-75 sharpening cycles on them. I put it that way because some have been my own knives being re-profiled to differing bevel angles as test’s and some have been friends knives I did for free just to get some more steel under the diamonds. Because of this I really don’t have an accurate count but there have been at least 30-35 of my own knives and 15-20 of others knives. I will say that you can feel the diamonds starting to settle in after only a few knives, maybe as few as 5-10 sharpening cycles. Obviously, this will vary based on time spent at each grit level, as already pointed out, and also the types of steel might have an effect also. I’m not sure about that since the diamonds are so much harder than the steel, a few degrees of Rockwell hardness in differing steels shouldn’t make much difference, but since we are talking about break in and essentially getting rid of any loose diamonds inherent in the manufacturing process, that might actually make a difference. Others here can chime in on that aspect.
I will say this, you will be getting spectacular edges very soon, just keep at it. Watch videos of others sharpening to hone (pun intended)your own technique and get some knives in your vice. It will get so much better and easier really fast. My edges are so good now, I am constantly bragging to people around me and showing my knives off. My son-in-law wants me to do his Henkels Professional S set that he won’t take to a “professional” sharpener because he doesn’t want to risk them getting messed up. If you knew how anal he is with his stuff, you’d know what kind of testament it is to the systems capability, because it really is the system more than my expertise since I’ve only had my WEPS for less than 2 months. I have to stop myself sometimes because I want to put a polished edge on everything, just because I can. but you learn quickly that a polished edge, while beautiful, isn’t the best edge for everything. but that’s for another discussion.

I guess I could have just said: Keep at it and don’t worry too much about the arms. They’re good just the way they are. Your edges will get better really soon.

Hope this helps you out some…

[Phil Pasteur]

Not worth it.

[Ted S]

Unit came directly from WE. I incorrectly assumed that they would update the stock arms with the washer and screws for all new units or at least add them to the shipment for self install.

Sorry Ted, it seems this will never happen, even though it’s a great idea.

It’s an “if your not happy” service!

Now I’m in the spotlight for being honest.
I see Clay thanked the post above, but still hasn’t commented in this thread?[/quote]

I’m away with my family for the weekend without my computer and giving long answers on my phone is a big challenge. In a nutshell, we may eventually have all the Basic Kit units shipping with the screws and washers, but it’s a slow process with our factory to get that done, so we probably won’t see them shipping that way until the second half of next year. I don’t personally find it to be a problem but do recognize that others do, hence the option to send yours in for us to mod, if you’re not satisfied with the arms as they are.[/quote]

You don’t find it to be a problem but as I mentioned, a strong influencer (jdavis882) did. I bought a WE based on his recommendation (WE vs EdgePro). In all due respect, his video showing the mods you made with washers and screws was 8 months ago. Seems you might have the wrong factory.

[Chris]

For clarity!
I’m not getting paid for comment. 😉

I’m “not” saying you can’t sharpen your knives with the old arms.

I saw this as a problem straight away when “I” bought my WEPS.
Not with the idea, or that there were ball joints on the horizon.

My problem was with the manufacturing quality of the universal joint, as a person with some mechanical knowledge it was a disappointment to see how loose this joint was.
Siiting the stone against the knife edge and watching the angle variation was not something I expected from a big dollar “guided” sharpening system.
I drilled and tapped the holes and fitted screws etc.
But the machined faces of the joint were not parallel, so it would still grip at different points of rotation.
Then I also wondered why the arm had so much play in the paddles and discovered that this would be addressed with the ball joint upgrade also.

This is not my imagination or a conspiracy to discredit WE, it’s basic fact!
I find it strange that I am considered OCD for thinking this.

Of course you can accept that this is as good as is gets and adjust your technique to allow for it?
It seems that is what some want you to do.
You can sharpen a knife with a rock or a coffee cup, let’s not use the “I still get great results” line.

It’s simply about adding more cost to something that is already considered expensive.
Let’s keep the politics out of this and work towards a solution?

I guess first we need to be allowed to call it a “problem”?

[Gary Crumb]

I agree with you Chris, otherwise I wouldn’t have done the mods myself or ordered the ball arms. But it’s completely possible to get pretty fantastic edges with the stock arms, too. My arms with the play they had to begin with, had more accuracy than any of the other “guided” sharpeners I have, and I was able to get a decent edge with those systems. Not a wicked edge, but a functional one. Granted, I took a quantum leap in cost when I went to the WEPS, as I guess we all did. With that leap, I also got a system that was so much better than what I had, but not yet what it COULD be. Tighter tolerances on the universal joint arms would help make it what it should be out of the box and the upgrade to the ball arms will take it to the extreme limit or if it doesn’t, you’ll be able to see it from there…
I guess what I’m saying is that you’re both right. The stock arms are functional but could be better, right out of the box. Tighter tolerances on the joints would help considerably.

[Chris]

But it’s completely possible to get pretty fantastic edges with the stock arms, too.

Of course, I spent roughly twenty years making a living with tools that were sharpened by me every day I used them.
I was also a hunter who supplemented my income by killing and skinning many animals.

My edge over everyone else was having the best tools and have them working to the best of their ability. 😉

edit – I feel like this is one of those “don’t talk about the elephant in the room” threads. :S

[cbwx34]

I guess first we need to be allowed to call it a “problem”?

edit – I feel like this is one of those “don’t talk about the elephant in the room” threads. :S

The reality is that there will always be room for improvement with the machine, just as you went on to explore even better ball joints and some modifications to the ergonomics which sound very interesting. I definitely listen to those ideas and keep an eye on making the sharpener the best I can. Sometimes the innovations take a while to roll out, from concept, through design and prototyping to actual production and then apparently recall 🙂 since all the other parts of the business need attention too.

There is nothing wrong with discussing problems/issues/need for improvements/etc. with the Wicked Edge. Clay has demonstrated time and again that this is an open forum, and members are free to discuss both the positive and the negative. He pays attention to these threads and makes changes as appropriate. In fact, it’s one of the reasons I’m here. So there’s no need to continue acting like this topic is trying to be squashed.

Keep in mind though that what is brought up in a forum is only one part of the total picture. Clay has insight into other factors… total number of sales / complaints / returns / etc. that goes into the decision he makes.

I don’t think there’s anyone here who can say that this is a “problem” that Clay has decided to just ignore, is there? He already offers a solution to those that want it…

I don’t personally find it to be a problem but do recognize that others do, hence the option to send yours in for us to mod, if you’re not satisfied with the arms as they are.

So, lets move on. There have been positive aspects to this thread, such as adding the option of the upgrade to the WE site, other aspects of sharpening that make an edge sharp, etc. And I’m sure there will be more. If you have complaints, constructive criticism, see a need for improvement, or are happy with the way things are, etc. by all means share. There is no effort here to discourage that, and I think it’s important enough to say so.

[Chris]

I don’t think there’s anyone here who can say that this is a “problem” that Clay has decided to just ignore, is there?

I must admit when I first mentioned it I thought he was. 😉
Didn’t get a reply from anyone.

http://wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=13&id=4307&limit=10&limitstart=40&Itemid=63#4623

Of course I brought it up again a few times, but not until this thread has there been a price mentioned.
Or adding an option that people can select and buy it.
Read the first post again and understand what brought him here.

Then a mod said in another thread, you need a microscope to see the play.
I sent him a PM thinking he was joking and he told me not to “pollute” that thread.

[Phil Pasteur]

Hi Ted, and accept my welcome as well.

For me, my diamond hones had not settled in until I had done 10 to 15 knives. Even now, after a few hundred knives, they subtely change with use.

My thoughts on jdavis992 review. I have done reviews on things like stereo equipment in the past. When doing a review you try to find anything that is an observable difference in the equipment. I have measured things and shown that some aspect of the equipment did not measure as well as other equipment in its class. In most cases those aspects would not even be apparent to the end user. When doing such reviews you try to be a perfectionist. Reviews are not usually considered complete without something in the “cons” column. It is also worth noting that the original video where he compared the EP and WE, he did not really dwell on the arms. Apparently when he picked it, he was getting very good edges, or I have to assume he would have mentioned if it was a “problem” for him in getting good results. This should help in getting past your “BIG” concern. He did get good results! It was a few weeks I think, before he brought the joints up.

One BIG concern I have is if an experienced user like jdavis882 had a problem with the original arms, how is a rookie like me supposed to get great results.

All I can tell you is that I had my WEPS with the original unmodified joints for over a year and a half. A long time before anyone ever commented on the joints. I sharpened well over a few hundred knives, many for customers. They were very sharp, and no one complained. In fact they were ecstatic at the edge on their knives.

Unlike jdavis992, I found it easy to find and use a technique that mitigated the minimal amount of play in the system. Maybe this is an example of “ignorance is bliss”. I just got the system and started sharpening without any preconceptions. It worked, fabulously, as far as I was concerned!

I came from sharpening with bench stones. Any play in the WEPS does not prevent angle control far better than what I could ever do by hand, and I get very sharp knives with my bench stones.

I promise you that you can get knives sharper than you will believe with your system as it is. If it is something that will be a constant worry for you, get a set of the arms with modded joints. They will make you feel better about things, but the difference will not be earth shattering in your results. I say this from direct experience. As I got such great results with the original arms, I don’t consider this to be a “problem”. I am results oriented. I agree that is is an area where improvement is possible and Clay recognized that and offers methods to get those improvements.

Play with your system, read what has been posted here about technique, sharpen some knives, and you WILL be getting extremely sharp blades.

I suggest that you don’t agonize over the situation. Use your system and form your own opinions. Then make changes if you feel it is required.

Phil

Welcome to the forum Ted!

Don’t know if I have a problem yet because I don’t know if diamonds are “broken in” after working on two
knives which are not as sharp as I expected. I also did not see anything in faq or wiki that provides an estimate of the number of strokes needed to complete the “break in” period.

One BIG concern I have is if an experienced user like jdavis882 had a problem with the original arms, how is a rookie like me supposed to get great results.

One of the main reasons I chose WE over Edgepro is jdavis992’s honest evaluations with the WE shortcomings and improvements.

[Gary Crumb]

Hi Ted, and accept my welcome as well.

For me, my diamond hones had not settled in until I had done 10 to 15 knives. Even now, after a few hundred knives, they subtely change with use.

My thoughts on jdavis992 review (which was not done. I have done reviews on things like stereo equipment in the past. When doing a review you try to find anything that is an observable difference in the equipment. I have measured things and shown that some aspect of the equipment did not measure as well as other equipment in its class. In most cases those aspects would not even be apparent to the end user. When doing such reviews you try to be a perfectionist. Reviews are not usually considered complete without something in the “cons” column. It is also worth noting that the original vidoe where he compared the EP and WE, he did not really dwell on the arms. Apparently when he picked it, he was getting very good edges, or I have to assume he would have if it was a “problem” for him in getting good results. This should help in getting past your “BIG” concern. He did get good results!

One BIG concern I have is if an experienced user like jdavis882 had a problem with the original arms, how is a rookie like me supposed to get great results.

All I can tell you is that I had my WEPS with the original unmodified joints for over a year and a half. A long time before anyone ever commented on the joints. I sharpened well a few hundred knives, many for customers. They were very sharp, and no one complained. In fact they were ecstatic at the edge on their knives.

Unlike jdavis992, I found it easy to find and use a technique that mitigated the minimal amount of play in the system. Maybe this is an example of “ignorance is bliss”. I just got the system and started sharpening without any preconceptions. It worked, fabulously, as far as I was concerned!

I came from sharpening with bench stones. Any play in the WEPS does not prevent angle control far better than what I could ever do by hand, and I get very sharp knives with my bench stones.

I promise you that you can get knives sharper than you will believe with your system as it is. If it is something that will be a constant worry for you, get a set of the arms with modded joints. They will make you feel better about things, but the difference will not be earth shattering in your results. I say this from direct experience. As I got such great results with the original arms, I don’t consider this to be a “problem”. I am results oriented. I agree that is is an area where improvement is possible and Clay recognized that and offers methods to get those improvements.

Play with your system, read what has been posted here about technique, sharpen some knives, and you WILL be getting extremely sharp blades.

I suggest that you don’t agonize over the situation. Use your system and form your own opinions. Then make changes if you feel it is required.

Phil

[/quote]

This is what I was getting at. There is nothing “wrong” with the arms as they come out of the box, there is room for improving them.
Look at it this way. It’s like buying a high performance car. It will go fast and handle really well. But how many drivers will leave it bone stock? Probably a majority. But then you’ll have some that will want to squeeze out more performance. Swap out tires and rims, add a cold air intake or a chip. This would be analogous to the washer and screw mods. Then you have the few who would not be satisfied with that and want ALL the performance there is to offer. Now you’re talking about shock tower braces, carbon fiber body panels for lightening, engine mods, nitrous systems, etc. on and on… Now you’ve met the group that wants/needs the ball joint upgrade.
Now, can 90% of the buyers can use the stock arms and get fantastic results. I know I did. for some of the rest of us, we can see room for improvement in play/slack reduction either through our own mods or having Clay handle it for us. If you think about it, most of the people on the forum that have wanted the mod, have done it themselves. That in itself should tell you those people, myself included, love to tinker.
Then you have the elite few/OCD tinkering crowd that need the ball joint arms, again I am in this group as well as a tinkerer, I’ll leave the elite title to Phil and those that have earned it!

I’m not sure where Chris falls since he’s gone and modified the ball arms…which if you put that in the car analogy, he’s building one off race cars…:blink:

[Chris]

I’m not sure where Chris falls since he’s gone and modified the ball arms…which if you put that in the car analogy, he’s building one off race cars…:blink:

You guys are still going on about this? :unsure:

My ball joint upgrade takes five minutes and $20. (full retail price)

It came from a discussion here about keeping dust out of the current ball joints.
http://wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=2&id=4809&limit=10&limitstart=40&Itemid=63#6093
http://wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=2&id=4809&Itemid=63

I was told by a bearing specialist that in his opinion, WE simply chose the cheaper option when selecting the ball joint.
Clay didn’t get these made, he simply adapted them to fit the WEPS.

Perhaps I should start offering these for sale?
Can’t see why people wouldn’t want a race car for $20? 😉
Perhaps a video for YouTube.

Why is this such a big deal?
Nine months after the event, why not just improve something so all this noise goes away?
Not when people complain, do it before they buy it.

[Gary Crumb]

Can’t see why people wouldn’t want a race car for $20? 😉
Perhaps a video for YouTube.

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to cheapen what you were doing, just pointing out the levels people would go to/are going to, to suit their needs. It’s become a very personal choice…

As far as I’m concerned I am putting the soapbox away now. (I have checked for and repaired any weak spots caused by jumping up and down on it)

[Phil Pasteur]

Chris is just a bit sensitive it seems.
Besides it gave him another oportunity to do some WEPS bashing…

Couldn’t leave this out…

I was told by a bearing specialist that in his opinion, WE simply chose the cheaper option when selecting the ball joint.

Could he? It brings so much to the conversation…:(

(sigh).

Phil

Can’t see why people wouldn’t want a race car for $20? 😉
Perhaps a video for YouTube.

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to cheapen what you were doing, just pointing out the levels people would go to/are going to, to suit their needs. It’s become a very personal choice…

As far as I’m concerned I am putting the soapbox away now. (I have checked for and repaired any weak spots caused by jumping up and down on it)[/quote]

[Author]

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