Sharpening chef’s knife

[Leo Barr]

Great link working through the vids now.

[cbwx34]

Not having one, I don’t know, but one thing you can do is mark both sides with a Sharpie and make some light passes to see what each side is currently sharpened at. This may give an indication as to whether or not the knife you have is asymmetric or not, as well as give you an indication of what angles to use. (This can apply to any knife.)

A web search on the MAC seems to give answers on both sides of the fence… it is, it isn’t, it is but doesn’t matter, etc. Obviously, if Nicholas took the time and effort to redo it, he can tell the difference. I probably couldn’t, or would at least have to have two sharpened different ways to tell what the difference would be, and if it mattered to me. Since my time in the kitchen is minimal… I could probably get away with a 50/50 grind. I’ve read other chef’s who will sharpen 50/50 just for ease of sharpening. Not saying to do this, since undoing it is some work… just a bit of info for the discussion.

[Leo Barr]

Thank you for your inquiry. You can use a 70/30 grind if you prefer. However, we recommend 50/50-60/40 for larger knives, 50/50 for paring knives.

Sincerely,

—
Brian Arimoto
Sales Manager
MAC Knife, Inc.
barimoto@macknife.com
http://www.macknife.com

FAO Blade & Stone so do the micro bevel(cutting bevel) at15/16Ëšeach side

[Phil Pasteur]

Nicholas,

One can not argue with success!!
If you like it, stay with it.

I have decided that I need to make a decision for sharpening a specific knife for a specific use, and knowing all of the properties of the steel on that blade.

My idea on this is this, do what works for you! BUT, there is absolutely no reason that you should be able to get a 70/30 edge more sharp than a 50/50 bevel. If you do, there is something wrong with your technique. Keep in mind that there will need to be adequate thinning behind the edge in any case. Take that as a given, and you really can’t make a 70/30% or a 0/30% blade of a given steel any sharper than a 50/50% bevel. The limits are based upon the steel. You cannot exceed the thinness that the steel will support and achieve edge integrity, period.

Often bevel angle is a boutique thing.. The Japanese. according to what there is of the history. made things easy to sharpen, one angle, and flat, Later they made angles more westernized … easier to sharpen for us bungling western guys ???

My point is, if you can’t get a 50/50 bevel a sharp as a 70/30 bevel (within you ability to really determine sharpness… NOT it somehow “feels” sharper), you need to work on your technique!!

[Leo Barr]

I think the 70/30 / 60/40 bevels you speak of are recommended for a lot of Japanese knives beveled on each side these bevels are created in two ways it often refers to the number of strokes on the tops to bottom side when sharpening by hand (without the assistance of a tool) and also the bevels will be different angles say 10Ëš on the topside & 15Ëš on the backside .
The video links you gave are very good you may also want to check out “Korin The Chefs Edge” video .
I think this sharpening(hand sharpening) I would reserve either for special knives or for customers willing to pay 20+€ a knife and for single bevel knives such as Debas or Yanagiba .
I do not think I would want to try to sharpen a thick single bevel Deba or a Yanagiba on any tool unless I wanted to introduce a micro bevel which is not how they are intended to be.
I believe that it is important to have many different tools for sharpening commercially since no one tool does it all and for the most part people want is in general a reasonable cheap service although it is good to offer refinements like convex edges etc which the WE achieves quite simply .

The thing with sharpening is its an incomplete subject one lifetime is simple not enough ; that for me is the fascination .

Then of course I keep thinking it is time to make a knife —and on it goes!

[Leo Barr]

I just sharpened a Japanese pen knife at something like a 70/30 ratio and I think I am beginning to understand how these ratios seem to produce a keener edge . I think we all know that a lower angle will shave more easily than a high angle so splitting the total angle to a ratio other than 50/50 means the best of both worlds provided that it is accepted that the knife will not be good for chopping although I would use a cleaver or an axe for that but it will produce a wonderful slicer as preferred in Japanese cooking.

One interesting thing I picked up on is when sharpening a single sided Deba that often the first couple of inches of the blade by the heal is given a double bevel 50/50 so that if bone needs to be parted the knife is pushed down with the heal of the hand using the more durable double beveled part. The rest of the work of the Deba is done with the other end near the point.

[Robert Gilvary]

Just wondering if a knife would be better, custom sharpened, for a right hand or left hand user.
Meaning would it be any better if the 70/30 deg were either on the left or right side. Knowing most things are designed for right hand use, and most left hand usage is custom ordered.

[Leo Barr]

If as I think you mean which side to do if 70/30 then the stamped side that is if laid flat handle to the left & the blade to the right edge facing you then this is the side to do 70 and the other side 30 for right handed people and the reverse for left handed people .
Should you do this then say a Kai Shun has a total angle of 32Ëšso 70/30 is 9.6Ëš on the stamped side & 22.4Ëš on the other side I hope that makes it clear.
Here is the real crux of the biscuit slice or chop Japanese knives & bevels are for slicing the steels are also brittle. Softer western steels Henkel’s Worstuf etc 50/50 grinds are for chopping and prefer higher angles and are suited to a less disciplined user – high culinary abuse.
So identify how the knife is to be used before using Japanese bevels and angles .

[B Berger]

Leo,

I appreciate your explanation, but would also like further clarification.

You stated: “the stamped side that is if laid flat handle to the left & the blade to the right edge facing you then this is the side to do 70 and the other side 30 for right handed people”

Does this mean that the side of the bevel facing the user (Superior/top view) is the side that gets 70? or is it the side of the bevel that is touching the table (inferior/bottom view)? What angle does the top get, and what angle does the bottom get with the blade to the right and handle on the left?

I’ve been trying to find the answer to this question for weeks!

Thanks!

[cbwx34]

OUCH! My head already hurts. :dry:

Having seen a few of these threads over the years, can I make a suggestion?

Talk about the blade like you’re holding it getting ready to cut. So the right side is the right side, left side….

Here’s a pic. you can use if it’ll help. (My apologies… I no longer remember where I got it).

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[Leo Barr]

Okay this knife although one sided is the side you would do the shallower angle say 9.6Ëš the other side you would do the 22.4Ëš although this particular knife probable is not the best to show this ; the knife is for a right hander .
I hope this clarifies a bit plus as it probable goes without saying but the shallower angled side will take more strokes to sharpen so the ratio of sweeps will also be 70/30 since the steep backside bevel will be much smaller so that is the 30 ratio but the degrees are opposite so the 70 ratio will be only 30% of the total degrees ( that been the shallow angle will be a much wider bevel so more metal to remove ; longer to achieve .
May be just to help you not get confused draw cross section on a piece of paper

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[Gib Curry]

I appreciate this discussion.

I’ve got a nice but not expensive one-sided knife. It’s designed for right-handers but when I slice through anything it (being sharp) cuts a circle to the left.

“…. draw a cross section on a piece of paper…”

One thing I’ve learned for certain since I’ve been on this forum is that:

* sharpening a knife is moving metal around
* knife sharpening is an art and a science

So, I need to apply some critical observation & insightful thinking every time I pick up a new blade to sharpen.

I’m doing some measuring and cross section drawing of a blade that I unwittingly attempted to re-profile because the blade itself is asymmetrical. I’ll post more on that fiasco soon.

In the meantime, I need to look at my Japanese knife and figure out how to get it to cut straight. Any theories?

Thanks, Leo, Curtis and all for your practical insights…

~~~~
For Now,

Gib

Φ

"Everyday edge for the bevel headed"

"Things work out best for those who make the best out of the way things work out."

[Leo Barr]

If you look at the diagram the shinogi curves up at the kissaki so if you slice from the ago through to the end of the kissaki then the handle will push to your left so when slicing stop at the beginning of the kissaki which will also save you lifting the handle to keep the blade in contact with the board .
The Yanagi are meant for draw cutting so from the ago pulling towards yourself.

I must admit I have not experienced this but this must be why if you use the whole blade this is happening .
This is the only reason short of a bent knife that is doing that . If the knife is bent then you need to slowly in small increments bend it back to centre .

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