Shapton vs. Chosera WEPS Stones – The Great Debate

[Mark76]

Hi all,

I have only discovered this thread just now, 3 months after the last post 😆

How do you guys get your Shapton paddles made? I read about getting blank paddles from WE and then sending them to CKTG who will mount the stones. But I find nothing about this on the CKTG site and also nothing about blank paddles on the WE site.

I did a microscope progression with the WEPS diamonds, then the WEPS ceramic 1200/1600 and jumped to the Chosera 5K, which I’m writing up on my blog (hopefully it will be ready in a couple of days..)

This is what I had been thinking about for some time, since I have the 100/200, 400/600 and 800/1000 diamond stones, as well as the 1200/1600 ceramic stones. What would be the best (and efficient) Chosera stone to continue with? 5K or lower? (Couldn’t find that on your blog, Tom.) And what would be the best Shapton stone to continue with after my full sequence with the WE stones? 5K as well, as suggested by the grit comparison chart?

Thanks,
Mark

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Jende Industries]

This is what I had been thinking about for some time, since I have the 100/200, 400/600 and 800/1000 diamond stones, as well as the 1200/1600 ceramic stones. What would be the best (and efficient) Chosera stone to continue with? 5K or lower? (Couldn’t find that on your blog, Tom.) And what would be the best Shapton stone to continue with after my full sequence with the WE stones? 5K as well, as suggested by the grit comparison chart?

Yeah, the Blog didn’t go into progressions past the stock diamond paddles. Perhaps it’s time to write that up…

Since you have the 800/1K and 1200/1600 paddles, The next step would be the 5K Shapton or arguably the 8K, if you go by the micron chart. While you can get very clean edges from the 800/1K diamonds and the 1200/1600 Ceramics before going directly to the 5K Shapton, I am a little biased when it comes to that 🙂

I (personally) strongly recommend the 2K Shapton or even the 3K Chosera to proceed the 5K Shapton Pro in almost all situations, despite the “step back” in micron size. This is because of the “critical leap” that is unique to the 5K Shapton.

It is less of a deal to go directly to the 5K Chosera since it still actively abrades more and can be manipulated with slurry to make it more aggressive – IOW, the 5K Chosera is a cleanup stone. But the Shapton 5K is completely different – it only polishes, it doesn’t function as a cleanup stone. The cleanup on the Shaptons is done on the 1500-2K range (you can use the 3K Chosera before the 5K Shapton, too).

At this point, we venture into the subtle, yet tangible differences between the edges produced by the various mediums available. Diamonds generally leave a more toothy edge, the Choseras a little more polished and smoother, and the Shaptons edges have grip and control. When we go to this area of the discussion, it’s no longer about the micron size.

[Mark76]

Thanks a lot, Tom! Any idea where to get Shapton stones mounted on paddles from?

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Jende Industries]

Hey Mark – I sent you a PM. B)

[Jende Industries]

Thanks a lot, Tom! Any idea where to get Shapton stones mounted on paddles from?

Good News!!!!

The Shaptons are finally up on the WEPS site – just go to the products tab above in the menu bar and click on accessory stones!

Now the discussions can really begin! I’ve been talking to myself too long :silly:

[Mark76]

Congratulations, Tom! That is a great set of additions to the line!

I have just ordered some Chosera’s, but in the past months my motto seems to have become “if it can get sharper, it should get sharper”. So I fear I won’t be able to withstand the force soon…

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Phil Pasteur]

Tom,
Did I understand you as saying that the Shapton 5K would be better than the Chosera 5K prior to stropping? I currently have the Chosera 800/1K and 2K/3K paddles. I thought that I might go with the Chosera 5k/10K paddles next. Currently I have been going through the stock diamond progression then the 4 Choseras, then 5/3.5 micron strop, then the 1 and .5 micron 3M lapping film. I end up with a decent edge that is quite shiny. I do seem to improve it by hand stropping on felt with .5 micron Diamond, then balsa with CRO, then latigo leather with .25 micron slurry.

So taking a look at what I am doing, would you suggest the 5K shapton by itself before stropping on the WE, or going for the 5K/10K Choseras and then stropping from there. I can’t afford to do both at the moment.

I know you mentioned some qualitative differences, could you expand on that a bit. Is it a big enough difference that it would be easily noticed by a rank amateur?

One last thing. I notice the Shaptons are sold loose and have to be mounted on a paddle/platen. What is used to mount them. I suppose it would be some kind of adhesive. If so, can you supply any specific information on this?

Thanks,

Phil

[Jende Industries]

Did I understand you as saying that the Shapton 5K would be better than the Chosera 5K prior to stropping? I currently have the Chosera 800/1K and 2K/3K paddles. I thought that I might go with the Chosera 5k/10K paddles next. Currently I have been going through the stock diamond progression then the 4 Choseras, then 5/3.5 micron strop, then the 1 and .5 micron 3M lapping film. I end up with a decent edge that is quite shiny. I do seem to improve it by hand stropping on felt with .5 micron Diamond, then balsa with CRO, then latigo leather with .25 micron slurry.

So taking a look at what I am doing, would you suggest the 5K shapton by itself before stropping on the WE, or going for the 5K/10K Choseras and then stropping from there. I can’t afford to do both at the moment.

In your case, I’m inclined to suggest that you stick with the Chosera 5K/0K because you already have some Choseras, and plan to “jump” to 1K film and then finish with.25 micron with strops. 10K is 1.75 micron so it makes a nice stone transition over the leather strop. the 5K/10K combo also makes the edge amazingly shiny, and you can go straight to the .25 micron strop if you want.

The 5K Shapton won’t shine as mirror like as the Chosera, but it is better prepared for a larger jump straight to the 1 micron film.

The major differences between the Shaptons and Choseras is their “sharpening philosophy” – Shaptons use precision to create consistent scratches without polish while Choseras use polishing to compliment their scratches. It’s Function vs. Aesthetic – Shaptons strive for function, and lose some aesthetic, while Choseras strive for Aesthetic and lose some function – relatively speaking – neither series comes up short in any category.

You’ll be able to see it more clearly when I post the comparison microscope pictures. B)

One last thing. I notice the Shaptons are sold loose and have to be mounted on a paddle/platen. What is used to mount them. I suppose it would be some kind of adhesive. If so, can you supply any specific information on this?

I believe Wicked Edge uses 3M double sided tape to mount them to the paddles. I used the double sided tape on all mine, and have no issues whatsoever, even with water.

[Mark76]

The major differences between the Shaptons and Choseras is their “sharpening philosophy” – Shaptons use precision to create consistent scratches without polish while Choseras use polishing to compliment their scratches. It’s Function vs. Aesthetic – Shaptons strive for function, and lose some aesthetic, while Choseras strive for Aesthetic and lose some function – relatively speaking – neither series comes up short in any category.

I’ve also been wondering what the exact working difference is between the Shaptons and Choseras. Of course B) I have read all of Toms posts on this as well as a lot more.

Therefore I’d be interested to know what the difference is between polishing and creating consistent scratches.

When we are talking at the (sub) micron level, isn’t the goal to create an edge that is as even as possible, both at the edge and the edge of the edge? So to smooth out scratches from previous stones and, ultimately (but this is a dream :cheer: ) see no molecule raises and drops at all anymore?

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Jende Industries]

When we are talking at the (sub) micron level, isn’t the goal to create an edge that is as even as possible, both at the edge and the edge of the edge? So to smooth out scratches from previous stones and, ultimately (but this is a dream ) see no molecule raises and drops at all anymore?

It’s a cliff hanger, I know! I’ve got a couple of things on my plate keeping me from writing up the blogs at the moment – I’ve got a new website that we’re trying to launch on Friday!

That answer is “it depends”. The smoother the edge of the edge becomes, the less aggressive it is for tearing, and it slices more. Good for shaving and unzipping hides, but due to the relative thinness of the edge of the edge, it can easily loose that freshness, much like a newly sharpened pencil. Geometry is used to support the edge of the edge. But ultimately, the point of the edge is still approaching 0 width no matter what the angle.

Conversely, a less refined edge has larger serrations in the edge (more refined still has serrations, just a lot of very small ones), and that helps for sawing and ripping power, although the coarser the serrations, the more likely they are to break off during use. Butchers like rougher edges in general since they are more concerned with removing the meat from the bone aggressively rather than making a beautifully presented slice cut.

Anyway, all of this will be explained in due time with the pictures 😉

Therefore I’d be interested to know what the difference is between polishing and creating consistent scratches.

Again, it boils down to Aesthetic vs. Function, and are two different philosophies in sharpening. I prefer the function over the aesthetic in general, but lots of other guys prefer aesthetic over the functional. The Shapton and Chosera 2K stones leave a very similar scratch pattern, but their resulting edges are tangibly different.

[Josh]

just got done reading all 12 pages in this thread… lol. great information!!! although I’m still not sure what I want to do to “take it to the next level” 🙂

really looking forward to the pics in your comparison of the edges created by both the shaptons and choseras Tom, thanks for doing that!

right now, i’m thinking i’m going to go with the 5k/10k chosera combo after my stock ceramic stones simply because of price…. and i think they will still perform well.

[wickededge]

Did I understand you as saying that the Shapton 5K would be better than the Chosera 5K prior to stropping? I currently have the Chosera 800/1K and 2K/3K paddles. I thought that I might go with the Chosera 5k/10K paddles next. Currently I have been going through the stock diamond progression then the 4 Choseras, then 5/3.5 micron strop, then the 1 and .5 micron 3M lapping film. I end up with a decent edge that is quite shiny. I do seem to improve it by hand stropping on felt with .5 micron Diamond, then balsa with CRO, then latigo leather with .25 micron slurry.

So taking a look at what I am doing, would you suggest the 5K shapton by itself before stropping on the WE, or going for the 5K/10K Choseras and then stropping from there. I can’t afford to do both at the moment.

In your case, I’m inclined to suggest that you stick with the Chosera 5K/0K because you already have some Choseras, and plan to “jump” to 1K film and then finish with.25 micron with strops. 10K is 1.75 micron so it makes a nice stone transition over the leather strop. the 5K/10K combo also makes the edge amazingly shiny, and you can go straight to the .25 micron strop if you want.

The 5K Shapton won’t shine as mirror like as the Chosera, but it is better prepared for a larger jump straight to the 1 micron film.

The major differences between the Shaptons and Choseras is their “sharpening philosophy” – Shaptons use precision to create consistent scratches without polish while Choseras use polishing to compliment their scratches. It’s Function vs. Aesthetic – Shaptons strive for function, and lose some aesthetic, while Choseras strive for Aesthetic and lose some function – relatively speaking – neither series comes up short in any category.

You’ll be able to see it more clearly when I post the comparison microscope pictures. B)

One last thing. I notice the Shaptons are sold loose and have to be mounted on a paddle/platen. What is used to mount them. I suppose it would be some kind of adhesive. If so, can you supply any specific information on this?

I believe Wicked Edge uses 3M double sided tape to mount them to the paddles. I used the double sided tape on all mine, and have no issues whatsoever, even with water.[/quote]

We ship out the paddles with the 3M VHB tape already on the tray, so all you have to do is peel back the protective film and apply the stone. We can also apply them here if you choose so you don’t need to worry about making mistakes. Once the stones are on, the aren’t coming off in one piece.

-Clay

[wickededge]

When we are talking at the (sub) micron level, isn’t the goal to create an edge that is as even as possible, both at the edge and the edge of the edge? So to smooth out scratches from previous stones and, ultimately (but this is a dream ) see no molecule raises and drops at all anymore?

It’s a cliff hanger, I know! I’ve got a couple of things on my plate keeping me from writing up the blogs at the moment – I’ve got a new website that we’re trying to launch on Friday!

That answer is “it depends”. The smoother the edge of the edge becomes, the less aggressive it is for tearing, and it slices more. Good for shaving and unzipping hides, but due to the relative thinness of the edge of the edge, it can easily loose that freshness, much like a newly sharpened pencil. Geometry is used to support the edge of the edge. But ultimately, the point of the edge is still approaching 0 width no matter what the angle.

Conversely, a less refined edge has larger serrations in the edge (more refined still has serrations, just a lot of very small ones), and that helps for sawing and ripping power, although the coarser the serrations, the more likely they are to break off during use. Butchers like rougher edges in general since they are more concerned with removing the meat from the bone aggressively rather than making a beautifully presented slice cut.

Anyway, all of this will be explained in due time with the pictures 😉

Therefore I’d be interested to know what the difference is between polishing and creating consistent scratches.

Again, it boils down to Aesthetic vs. Function, and are two different philosophies in sharpening. I prefer the function over the aesthetic in general, but lots of other guys prefer aesthetic over the functional. The Shapton and Chosera 2K stones leave a very similar scratch pattern, but their resulting edges are tangibly different.[/quote]

I’m in total agreement here with the added caveat that the polish level (when considering function) should be dictated by the type of cutting to be done. In the most simplistic view, if you’re push-cutting, as you would to shave or to carve wood, then you’ll want as polished a bevel and edge as possible and if you’re slice cutting, then some level of micro-serration is desirable, the exact size of the serrations is dependent on the material you’re cutting. I’ve tried to cut zip ties with with a super polished edge and the knife just kind of slides across the surface, so I’ve found that a relatively coarse finish is good for cutting hard plastics. If you’re slashing rope, toothier is better. If you’re cutting rope by pressing it against a board and push cutting, then smooth is better. Materials that have a tough shell and soft interior like tomatoes and baguettes benefit from a slightly toothy edge (unless the angle is super acute and then you can push cut right through that stuff with a super polished edge 🙂 ) When I’m first starting out with a knife, I like to polish as much as possible and then try to use it on whatever it’s intended for. Then I start going backwards in coarseness until I find the right finish level for the job and then I keep it there.

-Clay

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