Next purchase … need ideas

[Mikedoh]

The diamond stones are a fairly consistent thickness 100 to 1000.
The ceramics may be a bit thinner than the diamonds, but are relatively consistent thru the ceramic range.
Strop thickness also varies.
If stone thickness is different, then sharpening angle will be different at a given set point.

If you don’t adjust for stone thickness differences with the angle cube or SWAT tool (what ever its name is now), you will be sharpening at a different angle.

[Leo Barr]

All the stones are varying thicknesses Clay said probable due to the thickness of the diamonds the finer the medium the thinner the plate so the 1200 will track at a lower angle than a lower grit . This may be acceptable if just using the diamonds but different ceramics will wear at different rates and with use so all things change with use then the Choseras once again have different wear rates I believe the 10k is harder than the 400 plus you may not use them all at one sitting then flattening them will probable result in differences . Next the strops leather – roo and the fabric ones are likely to be of different thicknesses then the plastic paddles have to be considered if the rod guides differ in size this again will add up to differences add it all together and there can be big differences from the cumulative error .
So I recommend either checking the angle with each paddle change or buy the Variable Stone Thickness Adapter it will save time since the angles are easily maintained with these so no need to check with the angle cube at each paddle change.
Then with the Variable Stone Thickness Adapter you need not even think of the differences you will just make minor adjustments to compensate for variations .
I would suggest that these should be your next purchase they have a sale price at the moment of just over 29€ in my mind incredible value.

[Gib Curry]

If you don’t adjust for stone thickness differences with the angle cube or SWAT tool (what ever its name is now), you will be sharpening at a different angle.

I just did some research on google and didn’t find what I was looking for that relates to this.

What degree of difference (or difference in degree) per side makes a difference in sharpness/sharpening?

If I use the angle cube and one side reads 20.05 and the other side reads 19.05, is that “too big” a difference and I should seek more refinement?

Is plus or minus one degree too much?

I’ve been using the angle cube on both sides of each set of paddles for a while — just to satisfy my OCD.

But, still sometimes the angle cube seems to be extra sensitive and I “settle” for a plus/minus .1 degree difference as being OK.

Like I said I did some research but I haven’t done any experimentation. If I sharpen on side at 19 degrees and the other at 20 degrees, how much will that degrade the quality of the end product?

To settle my internal debate without doing the aforementioned research — I’m definitely going to get the
Variable Stone Thickness Adapter.

As mentioned by others, as well, it will:

1. Improve the refinement of my set angles
2. Save me much time setting angles for each side of each paddle
3. I won’t be reaching over the blade for the angle cube (the only accessory still behind the vise and not beside, in front or under)

Those are significant selling points to me. After that, I’ll start saving for more variety of paddles and materials.

Just thought I’d put in my two cents — or in this case 29€ ($40)

~~~~
For Now,

Gib

Φ

"Everyday edge for the bevel headed"

"Things work out best for those who make the best out of the way things work out."

[Leo Barr]

I think the variation will be too much if the knife tries to steer itself when cutting and that steering will need to be on something with a bit of thickness so if it cut maybe a steak that would be enough to make the knife steer but cutting a piece of string would probable not make a difference . I think it would require some testing to come up with a figure that you could say is an amount that effects the performance of a knife the profile behind the knife could amplify the steerage so if the profile is slender then the effects of differences are minimal.
Misino knives with a 70/30 bevel have asymmetric sides(the right side is heavily convex whilst the left is much flatter with a slight convex) which sets the edge bevel to the centre(of the blade) but if you sharpen them 50/50 (the bevel will no longer be centred)then they will steer themselves to the left (this is as far as I understand it ) .

[Daniel maloon]

+1 on not reaching over the blade. Went over a .5m edge to grab my roo strops and finally tagged myself last week on the forearm. Just barely touched the edge..it closed up quickly though.

[Leo Barr]

I have cut myself twice on the WE once before Tuffy gave me a pair of Kevlar gloves and once when I was beginning a knife and was wearing only one glove so I could feel the burr I tried to damage the point of the knife with the edge of my thumb it just stopped short of the nail.

[Gib Curry]

I think the variation will be too much if the knife tries to steer itself….
Misino knives with a 70/30 bevel have asymmetric sides(the right side is heavily convex whilst the left is much flatter with a slight convex) which sets the edge bevel to the centre(of the blade) but if you sharpen them 50/50 (the bevel will no longer be centred)then they will steer themselves to the left (this is as far as I understand it ) .

😆 “… as I understand it….”

I sharpened a knife BWE (Before Wicked Edge) that would have, literally, cut circles around any straight cutting knife!!

It helped when I realized that one side wasn’t “sharper” than the other! :dry:

~~~~
For Now,

Gib

Φ

"Everyday edge for the bevel headed"

"Things work out best for those who make the best out of the way things work out."

[Mikedoh]

The Variable Stone Thickness Adaptor is a worthwhile accessory, especially when you get into water stones. I have water stones from my EP, Chosera stones purchased for the EP, and an 8k Naniwa stone on a WE paddle. Lots of different stone thicknesses. Very nice to only need to set the angle once ( for a given angle) on each side than constant fiddling with the angle cube with each “stone” change.

[drew]

The Variable Stone Thickness Adaptor is a worthwhile accessory, especially when you get into water stones. I have water stones from my EP, Chosera stones purchased for the EP, and an 8k Naniwa stone on a WE paddle. Lots of different stone thicknesses. Very nice to only need to set the angle once ( for a given angle) on each side than constant fiddling with the angle cube with each “stone” change.

So you’re saying you just set the angle and go? Do you change angle from ceramic to leather and things like that?

[Leo Barr]

You will only alter the angle when it is desired to change it for strops .
I don’t have this accessory yet but it works in a similar way to the drill stop collar on the Edge Pro . What you do is set the angle perhaps with the 1K diamond adjust the VSTA for this stone by butting the plate up to the face of the stone and lock it off this provides the constant. Then you may go to your starting stone and set up the stone angle to but up to the VSTA and lock it off this will have set the stone up at an identical angle to the stone that you initially set up ; then with each change of stone you repeat the process until you get to stops then you reset the stone arm at the desired angle against the knife then but it up against the VSTA and now you have your next constant for the strops .
It sounds a lot more complicated than it actually is I am not sure if Clay or anyone has made a vid of it yet.
Suffice to say if I wrote out how you make a cup of coffee from start to finish even instant coffee it would still be a long dialogue – find kettle is there water is there power -no water fill it up no power plug it in it would sound way more difficult than it is take it from me it is the WE version of the Edge Pro drill stop collar and if you have not used it it can be hard to see how it functions but it is simplicity itself I think at the moment not having used either it is hard to grab just how simple and well it works .
I relate to this since I had a similar problem with the drill stop collar until I actually used it then it became clear just how it works .
I am sure you have read or heard Clay’s advice that with strops you drop the angle by 2˚ so that you do not round off the tip of the bevel since the strops tend to curl around the apex of the bevel in use if you do not reduce the angle if they do curl over the edge then you will remove the apex of the bevel.
Many of these thing require building a mental picture of the mechanics of the whole thing the same way an engineer will understand and see the internal movements of an engine .
There is to coin a phrase and I am not meaning it in a derogatory way to anyone least of all you – but there is no white mans’ magic to this its pure science .
Lastly you only need to reset the angle going to strops it does not matter if you go from diamonds to ceramics or Choseras since you will only wish to change the angle for the strops. All you do is but up each stone to the VSTA every change of stone.
It will all become crystal when you have them (VSTAs).

[drew]

You will only alter the angle when it is desired to change it for strops .
I don’t have this accessory yet but it works in a similar way to the drill stop collar on the Edge Pro . What you do is set the angle perhaps with the 1K diamond adjust the VSTA for this stone by butting the plate up to the face of the stone and lock it off this provides the constant. Then you may go to your starting stone and set up the stone angle to but up to the VSTA and lock it off this will have set the stone up at an identical angle to the stone that you initially set up ; then with each change of stone you repeat the process until you get to stops then you reset the stone arm at the desired angle against the knife then but it up against the VSTA and now you have your next constant for the strops .
It sounds a lot more complicated than it actually is I am not sure if Clay or anyone has made a vid of it yet.
Suffice to say if I wrote out how you make a cup of coffee from start to finish even instant coffee it would still be a long dialogue – find kettle is there water is there power -no water fill it up no power plug it in it would sound way more difficult than it is take it from me it is the WE version of the Edge Pro drill stop collar and if you have not used it it can be hard to see how it functions but it is simplicity itself I think at the moment not having used either it is hard to grab just how simple and well it works .
I relate to this since I had a similar problem with the drill stop collar until I actually used it then it became clear just how it works .
I am sure you have read or heard Clay’s advice that with strops you drop the angle by 2˚ so that you do not round off the tip of the bevel since the strops tend to curl around the apex of the bevel in use if you do not reduce the angle if they do curl over the edge then you will remove the apex of the bevel.
Many of these thing require building a mental picture of the mechanics of the whole thing the same way an engineer will understand and see the internal movements of an engine .
There is to coin a phrase and I am not meaning it in a derogatory way to anyone least of all you – but there is no white mans’ magic to this its pure science .
Lastly you only need to reset the angle going to strops it does not matter if you go from diamonds to ceramics or Choseras since you will only wish to change the angle for the strops. All you do is but up each stone to the VSTA every change of stone.
It will all become crystal when you have them (VSTAs).

Thanks for that … So are the VSTAs a must have? I have done a lot of reading and you said as well that you only change the angle with strops. I have read that as well … Then we got on the top of thickness and all that and needing to change your angles with more addons and more $$ I am just not wanting to spend more money after my recent purchase of blocks. I’d like to use them and be perfectly fine with my results and not upset that I still need more gear to help sharpen after I’ve bought the complete system. If it’s a must it should of came with it to begin with I feel.

I was planning on switching the angle when I started stropping but never thought I would need to check after every switch of blocks.

[Mikedoh]

The Variable Stone Thickness Adaptor is a worthwhile accessory, especially when you get into water stones. I have water stones from my EP, Chosera stones purchased for the EP, and an 8k Naniwa stone on a WE paddle. Lots of different stone thicknesses. Very nice to only need to set the angle once ( for a given angle) on each side than constant fiddling with the angle cube with each “stone” change.

So you’re saying you just set the angle and go? Do you change angle from ceramic to leather and things like that?[/quote]

With any change of paddle/stone, you simply mate it up to the face of the VSTA, that you set into position when you chose your sharpening angle.

For a visual, say you have 2 different thickness of stones, one 1/4 inch thick, the other, 1/2 inch thick. If you don’t compensate for the difference in thickness (by using either the angle cube or the VSTA) your angle will be different with each stone. The VSTA allows for quick adjustment for varying thicknesses without having to repeatedly use the angle cube.

It is not necessary, but it is nice. If you are using water stones , it is very helpful.
I drove a manual transmission in my second to last pick up for 232k miles. In heavy stop and go traffic jams, especially those lasting an hour or two, an automatic would have been nice, but not necessary.

[Leo Barr]

The VSTAs are a very new product they were only released this year perhaps they will eventually be included in the standard package .
I am afraid that sharpening is like that period even with freehand sharpening there is always another stone ,film, emulsion , paste or strop to get.
Then as you get more into it you realise you need perhaps the mechanical help of a belt sander it does not stop.
You can do it without the VSTAs since the stones reduce very slightly relative to the size of the diamonds so you don’t need the VSTAs for them but they are handy for the ceramics and the Choseras where they will wear at different rates .
SO in your natural progression at the moment you will have to correct the angle with each change of ceramic and with each change of the Choseras and the strops the VSTA is a fantastic aid that saves time .
You and many other sharpen very precisely without them I do not have them yet either .
But since I initially ordered and received my WE there has been the Low angle adapter , the VSTA, the chisel holder and I suspect not too far away the scissor adapter the product is evolving the greater the number the greater demands become apparent which evolves the tool.
There are many other modifications which would be desirable but if you incorporated them all the machine would be made of many more materials demanding much finer tolerances which would no doubt double the price.
I believe you have a very good platform to start on let it grow as your proficiency grows . I would say to get really good at it you will need to do at least 100 knives by then you will have a clearer idea of what you want out of it and where to spend the money on extras .
It has been suggested that if you have too many toys shall we say it is harder to see your progress so as an entry keep it simple this way you will get the most out of it .
It relates to what is sharp your EDC does not need to be hair splitting sharp if it was it will not perform well for everyday tasks it just won’t have the bite.
I have seen many blades with mirror finished bevels that will just not cut because the profile is too broad for example you can cut carrots with a plasterers spatular because it is thin . You could sharpen an axe to razor sharp and it would not cut a carrot but smash it .
I think as a possible beginner to sharpening those are really much more relevant than perfect mirror finished bevels the primary bevel should be minute even if it is a mirror about 1/32 of an inch per side is good with a very low wide second at (thinning) bevel .
So please do not get frustrated over what you have not yet got get to understand profile and blade geometry this is what really makes a knife perform.
Speaking from my own experience these were the points that took the longest to grasp .
Last word like everything in life there is no limit to what you can learn about sharpening a Master Samurai sharpener trains for 10 years and is never absolutely happy with their work as a master.

[drew]

I agree with you Leo … I have sharpened plenty of knives on other sharpeners, but from what I’ve seen the WE gave me everything I wanted. I went ahead and picked up an angle cube since they are cheap just to help with the angles … I think now I will be happy with the setup for awhile until I feel I need a new level of polished haha. But like your said … About a 100 knives to figure out what I like and learn my tools. I think now with those setup I’ll be happy working on 100 knives…

[Leo Barr]

I am pleased to have been of help – sharpening in whatever medium you use is a big rabbit hole I regularly have to stop myself from getting more stuff .

[Author]

Posts