diamond vs naniwa super vs ceramic vs shapton etc

[Ken Buzbee]

Okay, I know this has been discussed in bits here and there but can anyone generalize the differences in the edge obtained from the various materials? For this discussion, I’m talking about at the same basic grit. Say, all at 1000…

I know (well, I think I know;)) some of this but a general comparison would be helpful, both in what the edge looks like and how it performs in various scenarios.

Like you can get an 800 grit diamond plate and an 800 grit Naniwa Super, why would you choose one over the other?

Now I “think” the 800 grit diamond plate will cut faster but leave deeper scratch lines for the next progression to deal with (true or not true?)

Related to this, I’ve frequently read that if you plan to use a Naniwa for your finishing stone you should use it for the 2-3 prior grits too so you have fewer deeper scratches to deal with (true or not true?) If true, same for Chosera/Shaptons etc?

And where do the ceramic stones fit into all this? Scratches deeper than a Naniwa Super but shallower than a diamond plate?

Now I know the final results are what YOU want in your edge and ultimately only you can find the progression that works for you but some theory on what should be expected is a good thing to have.

Lastly, if ALL this has been beat to death in a thread I’ve missed, please post a link!

Thanks to all!

Ken

[Phil Pasteur]

Start here:
http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/wicked-edge-weps-stock-diamond-ceramic-microscopic-progression/

Then Here:

http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/wicked-edge-weps-chosera-stone-microscopic-progression/

then here:
http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/03/

No Naniwa SS, but he does the Chosera stones. It was also before the current generation of ceramics, but has the older ones.

Phil

[Ken Buzbee]

Thanks Phil,

Only 1/2 way through it. But lots of good stuff there. I may have more questions when I’m done though.;)

Ken

[Phil Pasteur]

Ask away…
If I can’t answer, I would bet that somebody around here can!!

I am not sure that Tom’s stuff will comprehensively answer the several different qustions that you asked, but it should be a good start. He does talk about the differences in that set of stones about what they do the differences, and show micrographs.

I am not sure that I could answer all of the questions without writing a book. I don’t type that well. You might think about asking in smaller chunks…

BTW, when you talk about the Naniwa and Superstones, you need to remember that not lots of people have them for use on the WEPS… You will find it difficult to find someone to comment on those.

One last thought, I really don’t yet understand why folks say that you have to stay within a specific brand or type of stone to get a knife sharp. Lots of people, including those using natural stones (which come from the ground and are all a bit different, even when mined form the same stone vein) mix and match whatever works for them. I will throw this out again…as a question from the logical standpoint… If the goal is to remove all of the scratches from the previous grit with the next finer grit (wich I tend to think is true), what real difference will it make what made the coarser scratches??? If you intend to strop with compounds (lots of people do) how can you worry about lower grit stones. Check Clay’s micrographs on stropping. He gets rid of most of the scratches visible at 800X with strops. Seems that it doesn’t matter what stones he used to get there…before the stropping As long as he doesn’t stop with something really coarse… or want to spend 8 hours stropping).

I asked this question here a while back… can I mix Shaptons in with my Choseras. I really got no one telling me not to. Now I have Choseras, Shaptons Naniwa, and Naniwa SS stones. I mix and match them all of the time and get results that make me quite happy.

Phil

[Ken Buzbee]

Thanks Phil,

I am not sure that Tom’s stuff will comprehensively answer the several different qustions that you asked, but it should be a good start. He does talk about the differences in that set of stones about what they do the differences, and show micrographs.

Tom’s micrographs really illustrate his points nicely. Sometimes I have a lot of trouble figuring out what I’m even looking at with micrographs. Not with his.

I am not sure that I could answer all of the questions without writing a book. I don’t type that well. You might think about asking in smaller chunks…

Point taken (and I’m waiting excitedly for your book – be happy to proof read it for you;))

One last thought, I really don’t yet understand why folks say that you have to stay within a specific brand or type of stone to get a knife sharp…..I asked this question here a while back… can I mix Shaptons in with my Choseras. I really got no one telling me not to. Now I have Choseras, Shaptons Naniwa, and Naniwa SS stones. I mix and match them all of the time and get results that make me quite happy.

I guess bottom line this is where my whole sequence was leading. Like you, I’ve always assumed it really didn’t matter what removes the previous scratches, as long as they are gone, but I’ve read this (same stone type/style/brand) so many times. I think some of it may come back to the series Tom posted where he “revealed” scratches from much coarser diamonds that weren’t visible until he got several levels more refined. If you switch to a coarse stone that leaves shallower scratches, they would work out more easily as you move up.

Regardless, it’s great learning more theory as the journey continues.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Some of what’s being mentioned depends on the specifics. For example, if switching from coarse diamonds to waterstones, I think you’ll get more benefit moving to a coarse waterstone of similar abrasive to the diamond first, because of the different finish it leaves. You can just go to a finer waterstone, but it takes more to clean up the bevel, and remove the type of finish the diamond left. I don’t think you need to go backwards like Tom suggests… probably more of a personal preference, but at least make a “straight across” switch. At finer levels, I don’t think it’s that important, which is why for example, you can go from the 1K diamond to the ceramics without issue.

Mixing between types of stones also depends on the stone. (Some of this is more important sharpening freehand). For example, if you freehand sharpen on Shaptons vs. Choseras, there’s enough difference between the stone type to impart subtle but distinct differences to the knife. You can tell because, if you don’t adjust the technique you use, you’ll cut into a stone, or kill the edge of the knife. I think that’s why it’s generally recommended not to mix types. On a guided system, this may not be as much of an issue. Of course it doesn’t mean it can’t be done… you just have to be aware of it. It even happens on stones of the same brand, for example the Norton 8K stone is very different than the rest of their setup. It’s more important not to go back and forth between major types, like diamond –> waterstone –> diamond, and of course don’t go back and forth from a hard to soft type like, stone –> leather or balsa –> stone.

I mix and match them all of the time and get results that make me quite happy.

None of the above is “law” just general guidelines. There are many ways to “sharp”, and at the end, this is what matters most! 🙂

[Ken Buzbee]

So the first question I have (which, as you say, Phil, may not get much input) is regarding the Naniwa Super Stone…. Tom mentions Chosera stones form a paste while Shaptons form a swarf. Paste – good…. Swarf – bad. Which, if either, do the Naniwas form?

Ken

[cbwx34]

The ones I’ve tried freehand…. swarf. They’re a hard stone that don’t break down easily. You can always lap one with a nagura or fine diamond stone to create a little paste (mud), if desired.

[Steven Pinson]

So the first question I have (which, as you say, Phil, may not get much input) is regarding the Naniwa Super Stone…. Tom mentions Chosera stones form a paste while Shaptons form a swarf. Paste – good…. Swarf – bad. Which, if either, do the Naniwas form?

Ken

Nania SS will form a paste or will not form a paste depending on how “YOU” use them. They are a splash and go stone. Keep them wet and they will provide a nice paste base that will polish very well. Let them dry as you use them, and they will start to cut and impinge.

I have used the SS line for quite a while now and for the cost/performance they are very tough to beat.

[Phil Pasteur]

Just a clarification, and probably an important one. I go from the 1000 diamonds to 400 choseras. Then 600, 800, 1000, 2000. After the 3000 chosera (recently) I tried going to the 5K Shapton. Seemst to work fine in the progression and I like the way it feels better than the 5K chosera. Again recently, and probably just because I bought the stones and have been trying them out, I replaced the 5K, 10K choseras with the Sahpton 5k (as just mentioned) the 10K Naniwa, the 12K Superstone then the 15K Shapton. Similar to what Tom has said, the Sahpton at 400X show mor of a regular scratch pattern then the 10K chosera , but does not leave the edge as reflective (pretty). Then I go to strops. I don’t go back and forth between diamonds and stones nor stones and strops. BTW, if you strop, the final refinement and character of the edge end up being a result of the stopping process. This can be seen under the microscope and felt in use.

Check out this thread:
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=2399&Itemid=63

Now if we get, through stropping, to a place where we can see no scratches at 500X, how significant is the finishing stone that we used prior to stropping, much less the progression that we used before that finishing stone ??

The original question was whether ..if one was to use a Naniwa for finishing, then was it required to use the Naniwas for the previous several grits. I have read many people’s opinions that state that you need to stay withing a specific brand, or type of stone for a progression, to get good results. I just don’t happen to agree. Lots of the razor guys go from Kings or Nortons at 8K to the 12K SS and then the 15K and 30K Shaptons, and love the results. Of course, they also always strop. But what better way to rate an edge than to scrape your face with it 🙂

Japanese sword polishers mix natural stones mined in different place all over Japan, They don’t have a brand, nor are they of a fixed grit. If you look at their work, it is had to agrue that their method does not work.

In a bit I will try to tackle the part of the OP question about the differences in different types of stones/plates rated with the same grit number.

Phil

[cbwx34]

Nania SS will form a paste or will not form a paste depending on how “YOU” use them.

Totally agree with that. Most stones can be made to perform different ways, depending on how you use them.

The original question was whether ..if one was to use a Naniwa for finishing, then was it required to use the Naniwas for the previous several grits. I have read many people’s opinions that state that you need to stay withing a specific brand, or type of stone for a progression, to get good results. I just don’t happen to agree. Lots of the razor guys go from Kings or Nortons at 8K to the 12K SS and then the 15K and 30K Shaptons, and love the results. Of course, they also always strop. But what better way to rate an edge than to scrape your face with it 🙂

Japanese sword polishers mix natural stones mined in different place all over Japan, They don’t have a brand, nor are they of a fixed grit. If you look at their work, it is had to agrue that their method does not work.

Well said, and I agree with you on this… I kinda get the impression you think I don’t? Like I said, I think it’s just a general recommendation… not a hard and fast rule… certainly not a requirement. I too, will often switch to a different type of finishing stone, depending on the results I want.

[Phil Pasteur]

Hi CBWX..
It is all good. You mentioned a few things that made me feel like I needed to clarify what I had said previously. The idea being to no mislead Ken.

Interesting thing about the Internet. You get one person that is respected say something, then everybody starts saying the same thing over and over. Yes the common wisdom seems to be that you “NEED” an entire set of stones from the same brand/line or no one can get good results. Logic says otherwise…

Just a pet peeve of mine… nothing personal.
🙂

Phil

[Ken Buzbee]

Thanks guys. Great discussion!

Just a clarification, and probably an important one…

But in your progression I see “consistency” Diamonds leaving deep scratches->coarse Choseras (removing those scratches) to fine Shaptons (adding uniform micro scratches) -> strops (removing even those) True?

BTW, if you strop, the final refinement and character of the edge end up being a result of the stopping process. This can be seen under the microscope and felt in use.

Check out this thread:…

Yeah, I tried to follow that thread before but there are so many sequences in there I kinda got lost. My take away from it was strops do a good job removing scratches, if you do enough passes…. I should go read the whole thing again…

The original question was whether ..if one was to use a Naniwa for finishing, then was it required to use the Naniwas for the previous several grits. I have read many people’s opinions that state that you need to stay withing a specific brand, or type of stone for a progression, to get good results. I just don’t happen to agree. Lots of the razor guys go from Kings or Nortons at 8K to the 12K SS and then the 15K and 30K Shaptons, and love the results.

True, I’ve seen that too. I used to get nice shaving edges from .5 micron lapping film, followed by stropping….

Of course, they also always strop. But what better way to rate an edge than to scrape your face with it 🙂

True, but as you say, they strop… Every time. Isn’t your point above that the stropping makes the rest more or less irrelevant?

Japanese sword polishers mix natural stones mined in different place all over Japan, They don’t have a brand, nor are they of a fixed grit. If you look at their work, it is had to agrue that their method does not work.

I’ll have to take your word there. I’ve never seen a well done sword by a master, though I’d love to.

In a bit I will try to tackle the part of the OP question about the differences in different types of stones/plates rated with the same grit number

Thank you!

Ken

[Ken Buzbee]

Hi CBWX..The idea being to not mislead Ken.

…and Ken appreciates that 😉 He’s confused enough, already 😉

Ken

[Phil Pasteur]

Ken,
first take a look at the info at these links:

Grand unified grit chart, scroll down to get there:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/856708-The-Grand-Unified-Grit-Chart/page3
This one is the WEPS grit chart, with pictures:

http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74:grits-comparison-chart-for-the-wicked-edge-sharpener&catid=31:general&Itemid=46

If you look close you will see that all stones/plates rated at, say, 800 grit (as in your original question) do not have abrasives that are the same size. This is partially the result of several different stnadards that are in use to define grit sizes (Japanese, European, American) and the different methods used to measure the grits. If you check the hedings on the grand unified grit chart and you will see the names of the different standards. You will also see the various items rated at 800 grit can run from 22 down to 12 microns in real abrasive size. On the WEPS grit chart you will notice that the 800 dimond plates use 12 micron grit while the 800 Chosera stone have 14 micron grit size. Look at the 3000 Shapton with a 5 micron grit compared to the Chosera with a 4 micorn grit size. At this level the difference equates to 20%.

Of course this is just the beginning. Besides the grit size you have the material that the grit is made from. Then there is the shape and hardness of the grit material, how does it abrade. Typically the diamonds are sharper and harder the the AL Oxide in many synthetic stones. They will cause a very different scratch pattern in use even if the actual grit size is the same.

Then you get into the thing that would take a book to cover, the binder and brasive concentration of any given synthetic stone. We have already talked about the differences between Shaptons which release abrasives very slowly and the SS or Chosera stones that shed more and make a nice mud. This reflects the philophy behind the stones deigners. As Tom points out, the Choseras aim to polish as well as abrade. The Shaptons to make a perfect scratch pattern with polishing being much less important.

So what does this mean? Well, just because the grit of a plate or stone is listed as, say 800 grit (from your original question) you can’t make any assumptins about what it does at the edge. You need to know the actual grit size and type, the binder and design philosphy befor making any decisions about equivalency in your progression. Beyond that, try the stones, use magnification to see what is going on, then test the edge. Just keep in mind, 800 is not always 800 when rating abrasives… 🙂

Phil

Here is another really great thread to check out:
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=2399&Itemid=63

Great photos and lots of progressions.

Here is another
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=6&id=1824&Itemid=63

A picture is worht 1000 words… at least!!

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