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diamond vs naniwa super vs ceramic vs shapton etc

Recent Forums Main Forum Techniques and Sharpening Strategies Abrasives diamond vs naniwa super vs ceramic vs shapton etc

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  • #5287
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    Yes, coarse to fine. The coarser Choseras remove the diamond scratches more quickly, saves time. I have gone from the 1000 grit diamonds to the 2000K Chosera and stropped. I get a very serviceable edge that it better for utility use. It is only when I have lots of tiem on my hands and am just trying to see how perfect I can make the edge that I go through the full progression to 15K and then use 8 different levels of stops down to 0.025 on nano cloth. What do you want your knife to do and how much time do you have???

    Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that nothing you do before stropping makes a difference. Getting the edge refined to the point that you can strop in a reasonable amount of time is important, unless you want to stop for 8 hours..
    🙂

    Clay did a study with different stops and abrasives. He listed the cutting ability of the edges, only a couple of combinations would pass the hanging hair test. This is what I meant, the way you leave the dege of the edge ends with the strops. You still want to get the bevel set correctly and smoothed out well. You want a refined edge before you start to strop. You may be able to do this with strops only, but you don’t have enough time. So don’t take what I said too far. If I thought that nothing made a difference until stropping, I could get rid of lots of my stones…most of them. Maybe just keep the diamonds… That is not happening!!

    For instance, I just reprofiled a Spyderco Caly 3.5 from around 20 degrees to 16. It is ZDP 189 at something at or above 62 RC hardness. It took forever with the 100 grit diamonds, I would have hated to try it with 14 micron paste on leather.

    Phil

    Thanks guys. Great discussion!

    But in your progression I see “consistency” Diamonds leaving deep scratches->coarse Choseras (removing those scratches) to fine Shaptons (adding uniform micro scratches) -> strops (removing even those) True?

    Of course, they also always strop. But what better way to rate an edge than to scrape your face with it 🙂

    True, but as you say, they strop… Every time. Isn’t your point above that the stropping makes the rest more or less irrelevant?

    [/quote]

    Thank you!

    Ken[/quote]

    #5289
    cbwx34
    Participant
    • Topics: 57
    • Replies: 1505

    If you look close you will see that all stones/plates rated at, say, 800 grit (as in your original question) do not have abrasives that are the same size. This is partially the result of several different stnadards that are in use to define grit sizes (Japanese, European, American) and the different methods used to measure the grits. If you check the hedings on the grand unified grit chart and you will see the names of the different standards. You will also see the various items rated at 800 grit can run from 22 down to 12 microns in real abrasive size. On the WEPS grit chart you will notice that the 800 dimond plates use 12 micron grit while the 800 Chosera stone have 14 micron grit size. Look at the 3000 Shapton with a 5 micron grit compared to the Chosera with a 4 micorn grit size. At this level the difference equates to 20%.

    Of course this is just the beginning. Besides the grit size you have the material that the grit is made from. Then there is the shape and hardness of the grit material, how does it abrade. Typically the diamonds are sharper and harder the the AL Oxide in many synthetic stones. They will cause a very different scratch pattern in use even if the actual grit size is the same.

    Then you get into the thing that would take a book to cover, the binder and brasive concentration of any given synthetic stone. We have already talked about the differences between Shaptons which release abrasives very slowly and the SS or Chosera stones that shed more and make a nice mud. This reflects the philophy behind the stones deigners. As Tom points out, the Choseras aim to polish as well as abrade. The Shaptons to make a perfect scratch pattern with polishing being much less important.

    So what does this mean? Well, just because the grit of a plate or stone is listed as, say 800 grit (from your original question) you can’t make any assumptins about what it does at the edge. You need to know the actual grit size and type, the binder and design philosphy befor making any decisions about equivalency in your progression. Beyond that, try the stones, use magnification to see what is going on, then test the edge. Just keep in mind, 800 is not always 800 when rating abrasives… 🙂

    You probably hit upon one of the reasons many say just stick with one set or type of stones… it’s easier than trying to figure out what works with what. :S I actually started a comparison chart a few years ago that tried to address this… I found that nobody compared different stones or “systems” to each other. The comparisons being made now though, are more detailed. That’s what I like about the WE and the studies that Clay is doing, as well as the information you’re sharing… it presents a better understanding of how things work… and can work together.

    Edit: Here’s one old picture I did… a kid’s microscope (literally) compared to what’s being done now… :ohmy:

    You want a refined edge before you start to strop.

    This is a good point. I read a comment once… stropping is done to refine the edge you already have… not to create the one that you want.

    A bit of a side note… I found the book “The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing” a very interesting read… it goes into a lot of detail about the different types of stones used, how they’re used, and the type of finish and results you get. (Just thought I’d mention it, since the subject came up).

    Attachments:
    #5290
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    CBWX,
    Darn nice work on those pictures of the different scratch patterns…
    A budding sharpener with an iquisitive mind…
    🙂

    Yes, I can see where it is sasier to stay wih on line of stones in a progression.
    My problem is the folks out there that try to tell people that it is the only way to go.

    I may just try to find that book… sounds like a good read!

    Phil

    #5297
    Steven Pinson
    Participant
    • Topics: 0
    • Replies: 49

    Interesting thing about the Internet. You get one person that is respected say something, then everybody starts saying the same thing over and over. Yes the common wisdom seems to be that you “NEED” an entire set of stones from the same brand/line or no one can get good results.

    Phil you are all over it. :woohoo: The “ART” of sharpening.

    #5299
    Jende Industries
    Participant
    • Topics: 14
    • Replies: 342

    So what does this mean? Well, just because the grit of a plate or stone is listed as, say 800 grit (from your original question) you can’t make any assumptins about what it does at the edge. You need to know the actual grit size and type, the binder and design philosphy befor making any decisions about equivalency in your progression. Beyond that, try the stones, use magnification to see what is going on, then test the edge. Just keep in mind, 800 is not always 800 when rating abrasives… 🙂

    Phil

    That pretty much sums this whole thing up! B)

    The key word here, in my mind, is PHILOSOPHY. All stones arguably work, but it depends on what you want to achieve. Mixing and matching synthetics is generally not done/promoted because you can now get entire progressions within a single series that have a “philosophy” already built in. (we could argue some of them, though!) It makes things easier, which is perhaps the best thing for beginner sharpeners. Of course you can mix and match, but that opens up the door to possibilities, which means “potential for failure” to beginners. 🙂

    However, given the obvious company of more experienced sharpeners on this thread, the growing market of accessory stones gives us many more flavors to choose from. As we’re finding out, “grit” is relative, and much like a new cook who follows the recipe precisely vs. an experienced one that alters the recipe to taste, the grit numbers serve as absolutes to newer sharpeners but only as general references to more experienced ones.

    Knowing the specific characteristics of a given stone through use and experimentation is the only way to truly find out for yourself. Technique plays a huge role in those results as well. As CBWX pointed out, I like to step backwards on my transitions from the diamonds to the synthetics because I approach sharpening with perfection in mind. However, if you were looking for more robustness, you could simply get a knife plenty sharp by making large jumps that “polish the grooves”, and so on and on

    That is the fun of this journey, and it’s great to see more people taking this journey!

    #5306
    cbwx34
    Participant
    • Topics: 57
    • Replies: 1505

    Interesting thing about the Internet. You get one person that is respected say something, then everybody starts saying the same thing over and over. Yes the common wisdom seems to be that you “NEED” an entire set of stones from the same brand/line or no one can get good results.

    Phil you are all over it. :woohoo: The “ART” of sharpening.[/quote]

    The opposite is also true… where that same “expert” will start saying a particular stone (usually a finish stone) is the “must have” stone to get your knife truly sharp. :side:

    #5307
    cbwx34
    Participant
    • Topics: 57
    • Replies: 1505

    Technique plays a huge role in those results as well.

    I think it’s the most important factor, even on a guided system.

    #5309
    cbwx34
    Participant
    • Topics: 57
    • Replies: 1505

    I may just try to find that book… sounds like a good read!

    Here’s a link to that book I mentioned…

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Japanese-Sword-Polishing/dp/4770024940/ref=sr_1_1

    #5310
    Ken Buzbee
    Participant
    • Topics: 14
    • Replies: 393

    Here is another
    http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=6&id=1824&Itemid=63

    Some great threads, especially this last one contained some good omparisons. Thanks!

    I feel the seeds of obsession starting;)

    Related question… How does the “smoothness” of the edge impact durability?

    Ken

    #5316
    Ken Buzbee
    Participant
    • Topics: 14
    • Replies: 393

    However, if you were looking for more robustness, you could simply get a knife plenty sharp by making large jumps that “polish the grooves”

    Please define “robustness”

    Technique plays a huge role in those results as well.

    I think it’s the most important factor, even on a guided system.[/quote]

    That makes perfect sense as a lighter touch, even with diamonds, will yield scratches that are shallower….

    Ken

    #5318
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    That is one I will leave for somebody like perhaps BassLakeDan to cover.
    I can say that you can read opinions on this that run the gamut. For a long time it seemed to me that most people were saying that a smooth (non-toothy) edge would be more durable. Recently I have read of sharpening gurus claiming the opposite. In any case it still seems like it would be related to what the knife is being used for and the steel it is made from and the angle you are shapening at. Besides that, without a reliable means of measuring sharpness the answer becomes more of an opinion than a fact. This is why I mention Dan, he has this. I don’t have any reliable and repeatable method of measuring sharpness, so I can’t answer this question quantitatively.

    In the end it becomes pretty simple though, you sharpen the blade for a given task, then resharpen it when it gets dull. In general, if you pick the right steel for what you want to do and sharpen properly, you will get the longest period between required sharpening.

    Phil

    #5322
    Ken Buzbee
    Participant
    • Topics: 14
    • Replies: 393

    For a long time it seemed to me that most people were saying that a smooth (non-toothy) edge would be more durable. Recently I have read of sharpening gurus claiming the opposite.

    Exactly, I’ve been reading the same shift. In my mind, it seems as though teeth would round off more quickly, but there may be other factors that come into play.

    In the end it becomes pretty simple though, you sharpen the blade for a given task, then resharpen it when it gets dull. In general, if you pick the right steel for what you want to do and sharpen properly, you will get the longest period between required sharpening.

    Ultimately, this is right but it seems like there would be general trending that applies to 60% 70% 80% of EDC tasks…. If only for each steel, like S90V or CPM M4 (generally considered good edge holders).

    You hit on a key point that sharpness, even if quantitatively measured is subjective as to the type of edge desired. Still, it’s interesting to hear people’s experiences.

    Ken

    #5326
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    How would you propose that anyone would get the raw numbers to calculate those percentages?
    Way too many variables and no hard data. The steels that you list are fairly rare, making data even more scarce. My EDC tasks are undoubtedly different than yours. A buddy of mine cuts wire and strips insulation quite frequently, another cuts up old carpet most every day … Probably the best you can hope to get is someone’s opinion based upon what they have seen and what they do with their blades.

    IMHO

    Phil

    #5328
    Jende Industries
    Participant
    • Topics: 14
    • Replies: 342

    Here’s where we begin to search deeper into the rabbit hole 🙂

    Before I define “Robustness”, it would be better to answer about the smoothness of an edge and its impact on durability.

    As with all things sharpening, it depends. Smoothness is only one of several factors that will determine the outcome to whether or not a smoother edge lasts longer. Geometry plays one of the largest roles, as well as the steel characteristics.

    That’s all I can say for now – I will be back in a few hours to further answer!

    #5329
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    Now things will get interesting (in a few hours) !!
    This is one of those opinions based upon experience that is worth listening to!

    That damn rabbit hole…:dry:

    Phil

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