Diamond &Ceramic Plates – Microscope progression

[Jende Industries]

Thanks Tom.
That’s amazing.

I have a question. Since I have the diamond/ceramic stones through 1600
and the Chosera 2000 is close to the Ceramic 1600,
would you suggest that I continue the progression, after the Ceramic 1600,
starting with the Chosera 2000
or would it be better to back down to the 1000 or even lower?

Thanks Joyal!

I would go tot he 2K or 3K Chosera from the 1600 Ceramic. You could jump to the 5K Chosera from the 1600, but I’m a firm believer of more “lateral” moves when crossing over at the medium grit level. (At the fine grit levels, you can jump “forward”.)

If you spend the time on the 800/1K WEPS diamonds and the 1200 and 1600 WEPS ceramics, then you really don’t need to go back to the 1K Chosera. However, if you want to really make sure, then going back a step to the 1K or even 800 Choseras can sometimes save you time in the long run. For example, on straight razors I use diamonds up to 1200 grit, then go back to the 800 Chosera with slurry and work my way up through all the of Choseras.

One of the things I haven’t really touched upon yet is the difference of the speeds between the mediums, and am sort of saving that for the final installment after the Shapton progression goes up. 🙂

[Jende Industries]

A couple more posts and we are all ready to start our professional sharpening businesses 😉 .

In connection to the critical leap: you are quite meticulous in your stone progression. Did you miss the 8K “snow white”? Or was it just a few more strokes on the 10K? I hear people who hardly seem to be able to live without their snow white and people who couldn’t care less.

Thanks again!

I’m very glad you brought this question up, Mark!

I had completely forgotten that the Chosera line is originally only 7 stones, with the final stone being 5K! :ohmy: The 10K Chosera was not originally part of the progression, and was formulated as a stand-alone sword polishing stone. It was kind of thrown in as an afterthought because the US market wanted something finer than 5K. That’s why the full sized 10K is 5mm thicker, and has a completely different box.

DUH, Tom!! :pinch: (This is where my sister would look at me, roll he eyes, and tell me I’m such a snob!)

That also explains the somewhat awkward critical leap.

Naniwa has many stand-alone stones, and the 8K Snow White is an excellent supplement to the 5K and 10K Choseras. It’s not really necessary at all, but it really does smooth the transition between the 5 and 10K even though the edge it produces does differ slightly from the Chosera “mentality” (it leaves the edge with a more of a chromium oxide feel instead of more tooth). If you’re obsessed with perfection, or just a regular stone snob like myself :woohoo: then it’s worth having.

Since we’re perfecting the Chosera lineup :cheer: one other thing I have added permanently to my full sized and Edge Pro sized Chosera lineup is the 12K Super Stone. The 12K Super is out of place on the Super series. It’s uncharacteristically hard in the all butter-soft super stone series and really brings out a wonderful edge after the Chosera 10K.

[Josh]

Josh – You’ve got a really tough problem :cheer: Unfortunately, I’m not sure what the root of it is without seeing the actual edge.

The good news is that from the sound of things, it looks like the sharpening aspect is working since you were able to get it sharp. B) Often times on razors you still see scratches without any magnification, but they won’t necessarily hinder the overall performance.

The fact that you aren’t getting rid of the scratches with 700+ strokes with the 14 micron paste leads me to believe that it is the razor and/or the steel quality. Sometimes during the factory hollow grinding, the scratches may run really deep – so deep that getting them out completely is not worth the amount of metal removal needed. Sometimes that stainless steel is pretty hard – Gold Dollar Razors are notoriously poorly made, but can be fruitless to abrade with only the lightest touch.

At this point I would try using a little more pressure on the strops.

A USB scope would definitely help in diagnosing the problem. I always recommend the Veho 400 since it is pretty inexpensive and if a bunch of guys have the same scope, we can all see what we’re talking about.

Yeah, I’ll have to get the Veho and post some pics… Thanks so much!

[Josh]

Hey Tom, quick question… I can’t seem to find any info to this effect… when going through the process of sharpening a straight razor I have found that the jump between the 1k stock diamond to the 14m pasted strops is too large… after 500 strokes per side w/ the 14m strop it has not removed any of the scratches. Which leads me to my question, what is the logical progression if I am sticking with all stock stones/strops (i.e. no chosera/shapton stones)? I just ordered the 1200/1600 ceramic stones as an “in-between” before I go to the 14m strops. Any suggestions or should I be good? Thanks for your help!

In reading this, a question comes to mind about contamination on the strops. I’m guessing you keep them pretty well protected, but if they’ve picked up metal filing and/or sloughed of diamonds, they could easily dig big scratches.[/quote]

Yeah, I keep them stored properly and everything the way you do… I actually put new leather (cowhide) on the strops and re-pasted them because I was worried about it. Good thinking though… Another way I know that it isn’t cross-contaminated is because with each paste/stone progression I was changing the direction of my strokes like you do/recommend. I could not erase all of the scratches going the opposite way. Thanks Clay!

[Josh]

For those (in the future) who may be reading this thread and wonder what the results of what we have been talking about (what’s happening at the very edge under a microscope with the stock stones and strop pastes) you can check this thread out… Tom was so kind to have done this little experiment!

[Thomas Herbert]

This microscope progression study was great! It was the final piece that drove me to order the WEPS and a full set of Chosera stones.

It looked like amazing things were happening with the metal when the water stones went to work. I probably would have bought Shaptons as well but they aren’t mounted to the paddles yet, and as someone new to sharpening I wanted to keep it simple for now.

Thanks agan for posting this.

[Jende Industries]

Thanks, Tom! I’m glad it helped (and that someone actually reads my blog! :woohoo: )

With the water stones, there is a completely different approach as to what is happening from what the diamond plates are meant to do.

The door is beginning to open up with the WEPS that shows just how many combinations of fun there are to be had! B)

[wickededge]

Thanks, Tom! I’m glad it helped (and that someone actually reads my blog! :woohoo: )

With the water stones, there is a completely different approach as to what is happening from what the diamond plates are meant to do.

The door is beginning to open up with the WEPS that shows just how many combinations of fun there are to be had! B)

and for those of you just tuning in, check out the strops thread that’s been burning up the fiber optics: A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work On this thread, we jump around from the diamonds, ceramics and lots of strops of different abrasives and substrates and, just for fun, threw in the 5k and 10k Choseras plus some new goodies from Ken, totally mind blowing and exciting! I had a great time with the last series and learned a lot about the different strops and Choseras as well as developing a new (on top of my already high) appreciation for the waterstones.

-Clay

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