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A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work

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Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 163 total)
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  • #2459
    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 123
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    New study, different steel. This is a knife that I had made from CPM-154, hardened to 69-70 RHC.

    I started with a polished edge, then went back to the 1000 grit stones before progressing to the strops. Here is the edge after the 14µ strops:

    510x – 14µ diamond and leather strops after 1000 grit diamond stones – 100 passes

    510x – 10µ diamond and leather strops after 14µ diamond and leather strops – 100 passes

    510x – 5µ diamond and leather strops after 10µ diamond and leather strops – 100 passes

    510x – 3.5µ diamond and leather strops after 5µ diamond and leather strops – 100 passes

    -Clay

    #2461
    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 123
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    Next I decided to throw in a little side experiment – I sprayed some Hand American, 1 micron diamond spray on my already pasted 1 micron strops – big difference here, though not totally surprising:

    510x – 1µ diamond and leather strops after 3.5µ diamond and leather strops – 100 passes

    There are clearly a LOT more diamonds than when I was using the strops with just the paste. Additionally, most of the ‘stiction’ was gone from the strops after spraying with the HA spray. I decided to do another 100 passes and started getting back to good ‘stiction’:

    510x – 1µ diamond and leather strops after 3.5µ diamond and leather strops – 200 passes

    For reference, here is a pic of the 1 micron pasted strops from a little earlier before adding the 1 micron spray:

    -Clay

    #2463
    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 123
    • Replies: 2938

    Man, that is really weird why the lapping films were so slow working and hardly did anything… I can’t believe it! My assumptions were totally opposite… lol, it seems as if the only way you can get a fast cutting consistant edge at sub micron levels is with the shaptons… I just don’t have a grand to drop on stones right now 🙁

    * edit: keep the test coming Clay! lol, there’s gotta be another answer! I haven’t given up hope!

    If you can hold out til mid-May, I might have just the thing for you!

    -Clay

    #2464
    Mark76
    Participant
    • Topics: 179
    • Replies: 2760

    So far, it seems like we’ve confirmed that the best stropping effects come from burnishing, which happens when there is adequate ‘stiction’.

    +3.

    However, this is the Wicked Edge pastes. Tonight I took photographs of the edge after stropping with Dovo paste. But it is 0:40 in the night here and somebody in the next room is saying I must come to bed. Up tomorrow :-).

    Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

    #2471
    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 123
    • Replies: 2938

    So far, it seems like we’ve confirmed that the best stropping effects come from burnishing, which happens when there is adequate ‘stiction’.

    +3.

    However, this is the Wicked Edge pastes. Tonight I took photographs of the edge after stropping with Dovo paste. But it is 0:40 in the night here and somebody in the next room is saying I must come to bed. Up tomorrow :-).[/quote]

    Can’t wait to see your results!

    -Clay

    #2474
    Mark76
    Participant
    • Topics: 179
    • Replies: 2760

    Interesting experiments again, Clay!

    Slight tangent here – polishing tapes… I decided to retest the polishing tapes, starting from a polished bevel and counting strokes, so here goes, working backwards from 1 micron polish:

    510x – 7000 grit polishing tapes after 1 micron polish – 100 passes

    510x – 3000 grit polishing tapes after 7000 grit tapes – 100 passes

    These look better than yesterday’s results but not overwhelming.

    Why do you think they are not overwhelmingly better? I clearly see scratches now that (I hope) are from the polishing tapes. They are also quite evenly spaced, creating a nice pattern almost like what a stone would do.

    By the way, with current knowledge (it changes per day 🙂 ) I think this it the way to test the very low micron size compounds/tapes/stones: first burnish the edge until it is very smooth (e.g. using the 1 micron paste, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the 14 micron paste worked as well 🙂 ) and then do strokes with the fine stuff.

    Thanks so much for this Clay! It would, in fact, seem as if the 10>5>3.5 progression yields better results in the end… wasn’t so clear in the first one

    I think we should be careful in drawing such conclusions too early. In one post Clay noted that the 1 micron compound had by far the most stiction. That would imply that 300 strokes with the 1 micron paste should produce more burnishing than 300 strokes (in total) with the 10-3.5-1 micron pastes. But in fact the surface of the edge after the latter progression looks smoother.

    I had similar results: sometimes a particular compound seemed to cause more burnishing than another compound, whereas in different circumstances the results were exactly the opposite. I think this might very well be the result of the way in which the strops were seasoned (and the amount of paste applied).

    New study, different steel. This is a knife that I had made from CPM-154, hardened to 69-70 RHC.

    Are you sure that hardness isn’t a typo, Clay? But good to see the burnishing works just as good on harder steels!

    Next I decided to throw in a little side experiment – I sprayed some Hand American, 1 micron diamond spray on my already pasted 1 micron strops – big difference here, though not totally surprising:

    510x – 1µ diamond and leather strops after 3.5µ diamond and leather strops – 100 passes

    There are clearly a LOT more diamonds than when I was using the strops with just the paste.

    I am not quite sure what I see here. I I do see scratches, but not as many or as regular as those that would be caused by a 1 micron stone. Is that correct, Clay? If you’d increase the amount of spray applied, would the number of scratches increase and a more regular pattern appear?

    Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

    #2479
    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 123
    • Replies: 2938

    Ooops, I did mean 59-60 RHC! 🙂 I’ll stitch the 1 micron paste image to the 1 micron paste + spray so we can compare them side by side.

    -Clay

    #2499
    Josh
    Participant
    • Topics: 89
    • Replies: 1672

    Yeah Mark, you may be right… I guess I’m a little confused about which pictures were the right ones? These are the side-by-side comparisons that you posted Clay…

    So, here are side by side the 1µ – 300 passes and the 10µ -100 passes> 3.5µ – 100 passes> 1µ – 100 passes:

    510x – 1µ – 300 passes

    510x – 10µ -100 passes> 3.5µ – 100 passes> 1µ – 100 passes

    But then in the post above this one, you had another pic of a the same progression it seemed, ending with 100 passes on the 1m leather strops…

    510 x – 1 micron diamond and leather strops after 3.5 micron diamond and leather strops – 100 passes

    Unless I missing something, there is a noticeable difference in the first two pictures, but a HUGE difference in smoothness in the last one…

    I am referencing post # 2463 & 2464.

    #2500
    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 123
    • Replies: 2938

    In your post above, you’ve got images from two sets of tests, two on the AUS-8 knife and one on the CPM-154 blade.

    Here are three from the CPM-154 knife:

    3.5 Micron strops – 100 strokes:

    The bevel is very smooth after the 3.5 strops.

    1 Micron Strops – both paste and spray – 100 strokes:

    There were many, more obvious scratches after adding the spray to the 1 micron strops. I had lost the ‘stiction’ here and seemed to be getting more abrasion and less burnishing.

    1 Micron Strops – both paste and spary – 200 strokes:

    I did another 100 strokes with the 1 micron strops after the spray had dried. The stiction returned and the surface smoothed out immediately. I believe that once the spray dried, burnishing resumed and abrasion was minimized.

    -Clay

    #2505
    BassLake Dan
    Participant
    • Topics: 11
    • Replies: 110

    When I first saw Tom’s microscope photographs of the edge of a knife after stropping with the 14 micron and 10 micron diamond pastes I was baffled…..

    But in short I think the following is happening:

    • Both the balsa and the leather strops are hardly abrasive by themselves. They do not cause much burnishing by themselves either.
    • The strops become effective when loaded with the diamond pastes.
    • The diamond pastes cause a lot of burnishing, but hardly any abrasion.

    It is the pastes that do the work, not the strops. And these pastes are hardly abrasive, but have a strong burnishing power.

    Well, the whole subject of sub-micron particle stropping has me baffled in more was than one.. I question if it is even possible. See the following chart for a reality check on what worlds of size we are talking about then ask yourself. “what exactly is it am doing or trying to accomplish by putting this size particle on a sample of cow hide and hand applying that to a knife edge”.., Hummmm.

    Thanks to http://www.standridgegranite.com/calibration.htm#19 Standridge Granite company for the chart .. There are very few people in the world that know more about “flat” than these folks/. It would be interesting if we could get one of their engineer to participate on this thread !

    #2507
    BassLake Dan
    Participant
    • Topics: 11
    • Replies: 110

    well that chart did not take here on the forum board software, so let me try it again as a JPG..

    Attachments:
    #2510
    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 123
    • Replies: 2938

    well that chart did not take here on the forum board software, so let me try it again as a JPG..

    Thanks for jumping in and for your feedback and healthy skepticism. I took a photo last night of the CPM-154 blade after polishing with the .5 micron strops with a hair from my nephew’s head for comparison:

    You can just barely see the faint scratches on the surface and it seems possible to imagine fitting quite a lot of them into the width of that hair.

    -Clay

    #2513
    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 123
    • Replies: 2938

    Added a couple more with measurements, these are all 500x magnification:

    -Clay

    #2514
    Mark76
    Participant
    • Topics: 179
    • Replies: 2760

    Well, the whole subject of sub-micron particle stropping has me baffled in more was than one.. I question if it is even possible. See the following chart for a reality check on what worlds of size we are talking about then ask yourself. “what exactly is it am doing or trying to accomplish by putting this size particle on a sample of cow hide and hand applying that to a knife edge”.., Hummmm.

    Thanks to http://www.standridgegranite.com/calibration.htm#19 Standridge Granite company for the chart .. There are very few people in the world that know more about “flat” than these folks/. It would be interesting if we could get one of their engineer to participate on this thread !

    Hey Dan, thanks for the reality check! :cheer: Put our feet on firm ground again :). I’ll think of that hair when I am staring through the microscope at a 1 micron scratch… (Or better yet, make a photograph of the hair after it has passed the hanging hair test ;).)

    Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

    #2516
    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 123
    • Replies: 2938

    Went back to the 1 micron shot with the most clearly defined scratches and added a .050mm scale. A micron is .001mm, so if we can fit 50 of those scratches into the space of that scale, we’re looking good:

    Attachments:

    -Clay

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