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1st touch up on the WEP

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  • #21805
    Josh
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    • Topics: 89
    • Replies: 1672

    A low grit finish will generate a much thicker apex than a high grit edge which is one reason why a low grit apex will be stronger (resist lateral deformation) more….

    …the critical part is you want to grind the apex into a small flat. This flat is very durable and resistant to deformation and fracture and will just dull by slow wear. Now it won’t be super sharp, but it will stay not-sharp for a long time before it gets super dull. What you are trying to do here is avoid the early fast lost of sharpness as that < 1 micron apex will deform/fracture and turn into an irregular surface….

    Thanks for the explanation it really helps. Totally understandable!

    My only two questions are:

    – What documentation has shown that a low grit finish creates a thicker apex (when done correctly) vs. a high grit polish? I know this has been theorized about but I haven't really seen any data other than Verhoeven who shows it to vary slightly on a razor done w/ a true hone & tormek (nothing by hand like you do)

    – Why would you want to grind it into a small flat and not just let this happen naturally? Then it would be just as dull. I am picturing the picture you comprised that had the thick and thin apex and a red line and you asked which one would take longer to get to the red line…

    thanks for your time and explanations.

    #21806
    Mr.Wizard
    Participant
    • Topics: 6
    • Replies: 190

    – Why would you want to grind it into a small flat and not just let this happen naturally? Then it would be just as dull. I am picturing the picture you comprised that had the thick and thin apex and a red line and you asked which one would take longer to get to the red line…

    Pardon me for butting in again but I think I know this one. If the edge were to be used in a way that it would wear into a flat it would be highly preferable to let it do so as that entire time it would be cutting better than the flat state. However if the edge were to be used in a way that it would fail it would not produce a flat, but (assuming plasticity) something like this:

    That is from the Science of Sharp blog post Dulling on Glass[/url]. That is what we do not want to happen when the knife hits a plate in the case of the steak knife I mentioned above. Note that the rolled edge forms a surface much wider than the base that supports it therefore cutting off that folded part would actually make the edge sharper.

    #21807
    Josh
    Participant
    • Topics: 89
    • Replies: 1672

    Excellent point and the picture is worth a thousand words!! Thanks for posting that and the explanation, I understand what Cliff was trying to say and the reason for the increased microbevel now, it would prevent that type of folding. But I would still like to see evidence for the thickness/thinness of and edge depending on grit finish…

    ** update ** found what i was looking for! Check it out[/url]!! This is great!

    #21808
    Josh
    Participant
    • Topics: 89
    • Replies: 1672

    However if they are push cutting hard materials this type of finish won’t work because the apex will come under heavy loads to try to deform it and if you use a low angle and finish the apex with a low grit finish it is very likely to collapse almost immediately. For example that finish in the above which easily slices though ~2000 piece of 1/2″ hemp will fail dramatically in less than 10 cuts if you try to push cut because the forces will be so high that the apex will just deform and can crack right off. In order to make the apex perform well under cutting that type of material you have to raise the polish and then increase the angle to prevent it from deforming. Now of course continuing to increase the angle past the point it stops deforming doesn’t help. It is just that this point will be a lot higher in push cutting a hard material vs slicing a soft one.

    ok another question… lol

    Based upon this reasoning, could we not say that, when it comes to push cutting through hard objects, a 17 dps mirror finished edge would theoretically have the same edge retention as a 15 dps coarse edge? Basically what I’m saying is that, due to the lower grit finish having a thicker edge apex it will be more stable, and therefore you can actually lower the edge angle somewhat without sacrificing lateral strength, correct?

    #21810
    Steven N. Bolin
    Participant
    • Topics: 47
    • Replies: 456

    Man… You guys are so incredibly awesome! So much fantastic information. Thank you for devoting your time to provide it. I often wonder if I’ll ever come close to being as knowledgeable as most of you are. I can only hope that some day I will, and that’s because of you fellas.

    #21811
    Cliff Stamp
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 76

    Have you make a comparison of the performance between the flat (perpendicular) grind and the steep micro-bevel?

    Note a steep micro-bevel will turn into a flat as you increase the angle, a flat is just an apex ground at 90 dps. I have not looked into the question which may be of interest which is what is the exact apex thickness required to prevent that initial early edge loss. This isn’t because it isn’t an interesting question, in fact for many people it might be the exact question they are interested in – however it isn’t of critical importance to me due to how I use knives in general.

    Personally for example I would rather sharpen a knife which can cut 1/2″ hemp with 5 lbs on a draw and sharpen it after say 100 cuts so it never gets more than 10 lbs. I would not sharpen it so it starts at 10 lbs but can do 1000 cuts before hitting 20 lbs. Now I am using hemp more or less as an example here as the numbers are straightforward and everyone can cut a piece of hemp. But in general I prefer knives which are ground to cut very well and sharpened for the same.

    When I sharpen garden tools for digging, depending on who I am sharpening them for, I will either run a light flat (20 microns thick) or a visible flat (50 microns thick). It mainly depends on how much force they use and the kind of ground. If I don’t know anything about them I just do the 20 micron flat first and when I sharpen them again I just look at the edge and then ask them a few questions. If they note they saw early degradation and there is visible damage I will thicken it. By they way the reason I pick 20 microns is that is how thick an apex gets when I can see it.

    For sod knives and similar I do xx-coarse finishes and cut the edge bevel as low as it can get and not deform and thin out the primary the same. Again this depends on the individual but if you make an effort here you can really see large practical gains in cutting ability which will keep the blade cutting a long time. If the cutting is light and the soil is not so rocky I have gone as low as :

    -0.015″/5 dps

    With a 36 grit microbevel at 16 dps, this stays very aggressive for a long time and is so easy to sharpen that a lot of people will do it themselves. When I get it back normally the knives have thickened so that much of the 5 dps edge bevel has been consumed by the repeated applications of the 15 dps / 36 grit edge.

    Now if the weeder is a lot more aggressive I have gone up to :

    -0.025″/10 dps

    and I don’t run a true micro-bevel but another bevel at 20 dps (again at 36 grit) which is big enough to see. The trick as always is just set the thickness at the point where it stops deformation. This maximizes cutting ability and maximizes the amount of wear it takes to reduce sharpness to a specific level.

    […]

    Based upon this reasoning, could we not say that, when it comes to push cutting through hard objects, a 17 dps mirror finished edge would theoretically have the same edge retention as a 15 dps coarse edge?

    If the apex isn’t deforming, then the 15 dps edge will have higher edge retention, if the apex is deforming then it will be the 17 dps edge. The reason this happens is that a lower angle will require more material to be worn away to reach a given apex thickness (which is what determines dullness).

    #21840
    Zamfir
    Participant
    • Topics: 17
    • Replies: 346

    All this was deep but awesome! I had to read it all a couple times and thanks to the questions and replies I am understanding better. Freggin great stuff! Thanks guys! Cliff you are a true Gem! Thanks for the time you spend to explain and help us understand this stuff on a scientific and tested manor. I for one, really appreciate it! Without this forum and the folks here It would take me years to have the knowledge I have now. If ever actually!

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