Noob Stone Question.
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- This topic has 14 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 07/07/2012 at 8:00 am by
Phil Pasteur.
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AuthorPosts
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07/02/2012 at 5:40 pm #3772
1st post in here… hmmmm? Hope I’m in the right place, lol.
Just joined, new to sharpening/WEPS. Just curious about stone selection for my first kit.
I am in an industry that puts me in contact with many types of people/knives from kitchen, EDC’s even gardening shears. Would like to start a sharpening business and capitalize (although I realize I have A LOT to learn/practice first). I have thrown out the idea and actually have clientele even though I don’t even own a sharpening system yet or know what I’m doing, LOL!
I’m the type to do things right the first time and don’t mind spending a little if it’s right, so considering I would like to possibly do this semi-professionally, would the standard diamonds/paste w/maybe the addition of the 1200/1600 ceramics be acceptable or what would a “professional” kit consist of to focus mainly on Kitchen (not super high end)and EDC’s/Folders (moderate to exotic metals)? Would an entire set of Ceramics be necessary or only on the finer grits (1200+) and how fine to go, like would finer than say 5K be overkill? I realize the more the better/more versatile so I guess I’m asking what the basic spectrum would be to do some to do some decent sharpening.
I’ve been reading all I can but need a little direction, would like to order and start my journey.
Thanks for any info.
07/03/2012 at 2:15 am #3780Hey JDS, welcome to the forums! If you’re the type of person that likes to get it right the first time, the WEPS is THE choice, IMHO. At least, if you put quality first. If you put quantity first, you might consider getting a belt grinder.
Although I have sharpened a lot of knives, I am not a professional sharpener. But I do sharpen knives for people who use them professionally. It depends on your own professional standards how far you want to go. I have yet to meet a professional sharpener that sharpens their knives at a higher grit than 1000.
That said, there is one chef I sometimes sharpen for (my girlfriend) who loves her Sudoku knife after the 10K Choseras. But realistically, I think this is heavy overkill for normal kitchen work and doesn’t help in creating a sustainable edge.
So I’d say the diamond stones or the normal ceramics (1200/1600) are more than enough for practical use. If you like the WEPS, you’ll get other stones afterwards anyway 😀 . (What do you mean by an “entire set of ceramicsâ€, by the way?)
Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge
07/03/2012 at 4:18 am #3791JDS,
I have lots of sharpening systems here, including the WEPS and Edge pro, and a belt grinder. When I want to put a superb edge on a knife that is not only extremely sharp, but looks like a miror, the system that I use is the WEPS.I agree with Mark. If you sharpen professionally and want to make it worth your time, use a belt grinder. I got a Kalamazoo 42 X1 inch belt grinder several months ago. I have sharpened everything with a blad on it for about a mile around my house. Lots of neighbors have very sharp knives now that wouldn’t cut butter before. 10 minutes per knif is a long time on that machine, and that is to reprofile and go through 8 grits. Most of that time is changing belts. Once an edge is profiled, a quick hit with a 400 grit Trizact belt, whit compound on leather and jewelers rouge on leather… under 5 minutes, makes a knife with a wondeful edge for the kitchen, that lasts a long time.
So there are two different purposes for the different systems. If you want something that you will marvel at and is as sharp as a piece of steel can get, uses the WEPS. You will end up buying more stones down the road. A good start would be the basic kit plus the 800/1000 diamonds, the cermics, 5/3.5 strops, then a set of strops to put some 1.0/0.05 diamond or CBN compound on.
If you have enough business and want to knock out a bunch of knives, get a belt grinder with a good assortment of belts, including some leather for compounds.
If you want to do both, definitely get a WEPS …first!
Phil
07/03/2012 at 6:43 am #3799Thanks for the advice on the belt. I’m thinking just a side business for friends and word of mouth so not a heavy load. Really just to make my $$ back on the WEPS and maybe some gas $$, really just because I know I will be obsessed and wont want to stop, lol. Not sure I would need a belt, assuming that’s just for speed/volume, but I will research more. Seems like you can get a pro-edge fairly easy w/the WEPS and a fairly basic stone assortment.
Thank you “mark76”, kinda’ put it in perspective for me as a baseline. I will no doubt accumulate every possible stone in the end as I am THAT OCD. Again, I just needed a baseline to order and get started/practicing. What I meant was replacing even the lower grit Diamonds w/aftermarket Ceramics to create an entire set of just ceramics and not even using diamonds.
I will no doubt also use a microscope as I am verrrrry detailed/obsessed w/perfection, I really couldn’t see me being able to sleep at night not seeing my edges on that level, lol.
07/03/2012 at 7:21 am #3803JDS,
I did all of the knives… close to 220 at last count, for free… to practice, and just because I was so darn suprised at how quick and easy sharpening could be on the belt.
Now I hear you on the ceramics. I have not seen any low grit ceramics for the WEPS. I still use the 100/200 stones for reprofiling an edge. I often go through the entire diamond progression, 100/200, 400/600, and 800/1000 then start with the 400 or 600 chosera waterstones and go up through the 10K. There are several, including Tom who posts here occasionally that slightly prefer the Shapton waterstones up to 30K. (but they are real expensive… you will do a whole bunch of casualy sharpening before seeing any gas money :)) Either way you can go to about 400 on the low end. Nothing I have found beats the lower grit diamonds for reprofiling.
Here are som links for you:Chosera stones:
http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/04/http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/02/
This also has the WEPS diamond progression.
Shapton Stones
http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/03/As Mark likes to say… you are headed down the rabit hole my friend… it can be a bottomless money pit, but full of wonder and endless hours of diversion and fun… and pride of accomplishment !!
😉Phil
07/03/2012 at 7:41 am #3804+1 to Phil.
I’ve got the Choseras myself and am starting with the Shaptons. But I’d recommend everyone to start out with “just” the diamond stones. If you’ve really got OCD, nothing wrong with the 1200/1600 ceramics, since you’ll get them anyway
. And then, and then, and then… But I wouldn’t start with the Shaptons or Choseras.Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge
07/03/2012 at 9:36 am #3807Sorry, I’m prob confusing. Guess I didn’t realize the Shaptons only go down to 120grit(?) So I guess I mean replacing from 120 grit on up with the Shapton Waterstones on the WEPS site. I’m calling them ceramics, am I correct?
Thanks “Philip”, pretty much answered the question anyway as the lower grit diamonds are acceptable/preferable.
Thanks for all the info, straightened me out, got the basic idea. Think I’m ready to order… LET THE OBSESSION BEGIN!!
Cheapest place to buy? Promo/Discount codes exist?
07/03/2012 at 11:38 am #3810Interesting question about the Shaptons!. I have seen the PRO series described in different ways. Either “hardened cermic abrasive in a high quality resin binder” Or “ceramic abrasive in a clay binder”.
So are they ceramic stones? Normally I have not seen them referred to as ceramics. Ceramic stones are usually, well, all solid ceramic. So the abrasive and the binder are one in the same material. To be more specific, there is no binder, it is simply a ceramic stone.I have not used the Shapton stones. As Mark, I am working my way to getting started in buying a progression. I just have to do it slowly. The thought of $1200 plus in sharpening stones is a bit daunting for me. If it is not to you, by all means, order up a set 🙂
If you read Tom’s “Microscopic Shapton Progression” article, he goes into some detail about each Shapton Pro stone and has photmicrographs to illustrate what they do. Again it is here:
http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/wicked-edge-weps-shapton-pro-stone-microscopic-progression/
He loves the Shaptons… as do many hand sharpeners. Obviously for good reason.As Mark mentioned, it may be better to walk before you run. Maybe get the Pro pack and see how it goes.
Maybe add the ultra fine ceramic and some finer grit compounds as you get used to the system and begin to know what you really want…. well there I go, the rabit hole…Do a bunch of reading and see what others have done. There is a whole bunch of real good info on the WEPS right on this forum. Clay, Tom, Mark and others have done some great work and have the pictures to illustrate everything.
As to pricing, just do a web search and compare. The guy I bought my original setup from had good pricing, but I would not recommend him to anyone.
Phil
07/03/2012 at 5:21 pm #3817Welcome to the forums! and to the world of precision sharpening 😆
In my opinion ( if I had it to do over again) I would probably go with the stock diamonds up through 1k and then switch over to choseras up to 10k (although that can get expensive). What I would do if you want to do it on the cheap and get excellent results is to just go up through either the 1600 ceramics and then switch over to some 3M lapping film mounted on either lapped aluminum or glass blanks (Kenneth Schwartz here on the forums has just gotten into selling diamond lapping films on glass blanks all the way down to sub micron levels). Here is a thread that GREATLY helped clue me into this ingenious idea… and what’s so great about it is that you can remove the lapping film and put a different grit down if you want 🙂 I actually went with the 3M alum ox lapping film that Leo mentioned from here (sample pack including grits 40, 15, 5, 1, 0.3um). It is already PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive) backed so it has a sticky back automatically and works great!
I actually honed my straight razor from the 10k choseras > 1um lapping film > .3um lapping film > finished on a kangaroo strop w .125 CBN spray. It is the closest, smoothest shave I have had to date… am loving every bit of it =). I have had more success w/ the lapping films than the strops, but that may just be technique 😉
Also wanted to post this up for you if you are wondering about stock stone/strop progression and what the microscopic images look like at each level…. Hope this helps!!!
07/04/2012 at 3:24 am #3843JDS,
Just curious, you say that you are a Noob. Is this just with the Wicked Edge System or to sharpening in general. How much knife sharpening have you done in the past. This is pertinent for me just so I know how to answer some of your questions in terms that will be helpful to you at this time.
Phil
BTW, when I got my WEPS, everything outside of the stock stones was pretty much on backorder. I too used the lapping tapes, along with very high grit sandpapers, because that is all that I had. You can get some very good results with them. I just stuck them to some balsa strops that I made. Of course glass would be better. The system gives you almost endless possibilities for substrates and abrasives. Part of the fun is trying as many as you can, just to see what results are obtained. Getting the Pro Pack, or even the basic kit and figuring the system out is probably a real good way to start. Oh, and don’t forget to get an angle cube. If you want precision, using it every time you change stones, is the best way to get there.
Phil
07/06/2012 at 5:04 pm #3894I’ll be ordering the Pro Pack w/the addition of the 1200/1600’s to get my feet wet and gain some experience w/techniques.
I have only done basic sharpening with a simple two sided stone (which I now consider barbaric) so I am pretty much brand new. I understand the concepts but realize this is a lifetime art, still can’t wait to start though! I will also be ordering some of the classic edge sharpening books, reading every article and watching every video I can possible find, I’m pretty thorough when learning a new art, lol.
I will also be using a microscope and definitely a cube, remember, I have perfection in my veins! 🙂
EDIT: Just watched the lapping film vids (thx for the link) but curious why WE didn’t include anything in the kit between 1000 and paste?
07/06/2012 at 6:05 pm #3895Speaking of the 1200/1600’s, Iv’e been reading so much WE, I’m getting confused as to where Iv’e seen what, lol. Is it my imagination or are the 1200/1600 Ceramics NOT on the WE site? Or are they the 1.4/.6 micron ones. I can’t even remember where I saw them… I’m delirious, been reading for hours. Thx.
07/07/2012 at 12:14 am #3901Speaking of the 1200/1600’s, Iv’e been reading so much WE, I’m getting confused as to where Iv’e seen what, lol. Is it my imagination or are the 1200/1600 Ceramics NOT on the WE site? Or are they the 1.4/.6 micron ones. I can’t even remember where I saw them… I’m delirious, been reading for hours. Thx.
Good question – we have them off the site for now since they’re out of stock and we’re deciding whether to carry them again. I really like the stones but the manufacturer is a major PITA to deal with and won’t fully back the product, so that presents us with a dilemma – we do fully back all the products and if they won’t also, then what? We’re still working on that internally and w/ them. I’d like to bring them back, but will only do so if I’m confident they’ll stand behind the stones.
-Clay
07/07/2012 at 7:44 am #3911Thank you for the quick and personal responses and explanations. Really makes a difference in my ordering a WE. Interesting to know about the stones, makes sense now.
I’m sure this is on here somewhere, but I’ve been reading non stop for weeks so I’ll just ask now… so what is the equivalent of the 1200/1600 ceramics? And again, why the huge jump from 1000 to paste w/the kit?
07/07/2012 at 8:00 am #3913This may answer that question for you:
Here is another real good comparison chart:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/856708-The-Grand-Unified-Grit-Chart
Just re-reading your question, I did not address the question about the gap between the 1000 grit stones and the diamond pastes that come with the kit. I think this is the result of all of the experience that Clay has with the system. We can pursue mirror, hanging hair splitting edges, and we do, becuse they are neat and just getting there gives a sense or real accomplishment. The problem with this type of edge is that it is not all that great for many everyday tasks. If you will check out the knife DB you will see many people that stop at the 1000 grit stones and polish with one of the diamond pastes. This will give a very good utility edge that will cut food, cardboard, tape, rope and whittle wood very well while lasting well. You get the slight toothiness while polishing and refining the edge with the diamond compound. Many report that you will still shave arm hair and be able to push cut at this level. In short, a pretty darn good all around edge.
I think that, at some point you have to make a decision what the best kit for the average user will be and sell that. All of the options are still out there if you want them. So you fill in later if you find that you need to.
Phil
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