I have a hunting knife that I used a 20 setting for arms and started with the 100 grit and went through progression up to 1600 stone and just never has felt sharp changed angles
Re colored with sharpie and 20 took all the black tried 15 to get a steeper angle for that sharper feel with no change went back to 20 and still not what I thought it should be
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Here is a picture
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So are you saying you can not create a burr at all? I am not sure what your technique is but you need to be sure you apex. Just removing all the visible sharpie is not enough in my experience.
I just finished up a really abused old carbon steel kitchen knife. I put sharpie on it and went to town at 20dps. I went until there was just the slightest sliver of sharpie left because I do not want to apex the blade at that low of a grit and cause gouges on the apex. bear with me here..
So I went through the progression down to the 400 stone and decided to make sure I had reached the apex. visible sharpie gone. I had to go to town with the 400 for 30 min before I could feel a burr! My process is to scrub one side at a time for a while..see if there is a burr..nope..scrub for the same amount of time on the other side.. usually what happens is I start to feel a burr back on the flat part and by the handle first..at that point I scrub in the same fashion but limit it to the tip area and where the burr is not felt yet. It took for ever to get the burr all along the entire blade. So 80% of my sharpening time was just on the 400 grit working one side alone checking for a bur..then switching to the other side.. I just want to make sure I was not working one side to a burr then switching over to the other side and making the bevel funky. I try to make sure I am working each side the same amount but I feel like I have to work one side at some point until I feel a burr the whole length of the blade. Otherwise I have no idea if I have apexed or not. Some people use a bright light and shine it right on the edge to make sure there is no reflection..but I just feel the need to feel the burr to make sure. AFTER I feel the bur..then the sharpening is more fun for me.. I sometimes feel like I am doing something wrong when it is taking forever and I am not feeling a burr. But I just keep on chugging away. Eventually it happens. That knife there you are working on, seems to be very thick. As you approach the APEX is when you are taking the most metal off and it takes more time.
Have you successfully felt a bur before while sharpening? Did you feel a bur along the entire blade on this knife at any time? If no, that is your issue. If yes, the we have to think about something else. But I think the bur question has to be answered first and foremost. Not just the fact that the sharpie was all gone.
Make sense? Learning about the burr was the major mostestesst important thing I learned when sharpening.
I was using the scrubbing motion the progressed to the alternating motion like clay shows on his videos
Once u start at 20 would you progress to another setting of the arms ?
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[quote quote=“Zamfir” post=20323]So are you saying you can not create a burr at all? I am not sure what your technique is but you need to be sure you apex. Just removing all the visible sharpie is not enough in my experience.
… It took for ever to get the burr all along the entire blade. … I try to make sure I am working each side the same amount but I feel like I have to work one side at some point until I feel a burr the whole length of the blade. Otherwise I have no idea if I have apexed or not. … I sometimes feel like I am doing something wrong when it is taking forever and I am not feeling a burr. But I just keep on chugging away. Eventually it happens.
Have you successfully felt a bur before while sharpening? Did you feel a bur along the entire blade on this knife at any time? If no, that is your issue. If yes, the we have to think about something else. But I think the bur question has to be answered first and foremost. Not just the fact that the sharpie was all gone.
Make sense? Learning about the burr was the major mostestesst important thing I learned when sharpening.[/quote]
Excellent points… I have to “feel” the burr, too. And, not as skilled as many here, every blade can sometimes still test my patience. But if I let my patience work, then I know that eventually I will feel the burr along the whole length. Then, and only, then “should” I progress. When I progress anyway, the knives just can’t be as sharp.
There's an "edge tester" product: https://www.razoredgesystems.com/testers/testers that you don't "really" need. You can do the same tests with a pen or other hard plastic barrel
But the instructions are interesting...
INSTRUCTIONS TO TEST KNIVES
STEP 1. With the Edge Tester in a 45° position, hold the knife blade vertical and gently rest the blade on the surface of the Tester. Using only the weight of the knife, the edge should ‘bite’ into the Edge Tester. A dull knife will not ‘bite’, but will slide down the Tester.[b] Checking at ½” intervals, if the full length of the blade ‘bites’, give the edge 50 points[/b].
STEP 2. Now with the Edge Tester in a horizontal position, using only the weight of the knife, draw the entire edge across the surface of the Tester.[b] If you feel any rough spots, the test is over.[/b] If the edge feels perfectly smooth, add 10 points.
STEP 3. Now lightly draw the tip of the Edge Tester along the entire length of the edge at about 45°.[b] If you feel any nicks or imperfections, the test is over[/b]. If it feels perfectly smooth, add 15 points.
STEP 4. Now, with the tester in the same position as Step 3, start at the heel of the edge and PUSH the tester along the blade very lightly and very slowly. [b]If you feel any nicks, the test is over.[/b] If the edge feels perfectly smooth, add 25 points.
Congratulations, you have obtained a perfect edge!
There are many ways to fail the test and only one way to pass it!!
The only knife that you won’t feel a burr on is ceramic. Some steels take longer to form a burr even when it looks like you should have one. Take a little bit longer scrubbing each side with each step in progression. 1000 grit is the highest stone most can feel a burr at. A cotton swab drawn down the length of the blade will snag fibers on any burr to help you detect it. Take your time even though it’s easy to go fast. To test for sharpness place your hand flat on a table. Grab sharpened blade and position it so that it rests on top of thumb. Press down in a quick downward sweeping motion. It thumb pops off cleanly, congratulations you have a sharp blade. If not, resharpen edge and progress to index finger. Continue sharpening and testing until all digits have been exhausted or you have been satisfied with the sharpness of your edge. I’m just joking.
You have chosen a very low bevel angle which will mean an awful lot of work to get to the edgeI in the photo it looks as if in at least 2 places you have not reached the edge.
If the steel is poor quality it is possible that the burr is more like tin foil and you may not feel it.
I would be inclined to steepen the angle (by a minimum of 5˚) to micro bevel the edge.
Lastly check that nothing has slipped on the WE!
Similar to Zamfir I had one with no sharpie marker left visible. Scrubbed n scrubbed, still no burr. A closer inspection using a cheap microscope, jewelers loupe, etc revealed the very apex of the bevel was rounded on top(probably from distressing the edge a bit aggressively).
My primary bevel was thick, like the one shown in the picture, and I simple had not removed enough material yet.
I raised the angle 1 degree and apexed in short order.
I prefer now to 1) Use the sharpie first, 2) distress the apex, knocking the sharpie off so the apex will glint in the light, 3) work the primary edge bevel watching the reflection along the apex until gone, 4) physically test, 5) inspect under magnification.
Ohh yeah for sure! It is soooooooo worth having a decent eye loupe. I got this one:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CL1POW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Free shipping and cheap as heck but I just use it all the time! Just used it last night when that one was taking foreverl. And Cliff nailed it. The blade edge was so rounded from it not being sharpened for so long..
It takes forever to be delivered so pick one up and just forget about it..then it will show up..lol. It has an LED in it and will help you out a ton if you do not already have one. I could not believe how cheap it was but it works!
When I use alternating strokes as suggested by Clay’s videos, I have a really hard time discerning any sort of burr, even though the apex is clearly formed
The burr is important only in that it reassures you that you have reached the apex and that continued effort can be focused on refining the bevel, not removing large amounts of steel. Of course, this test applies to the full length of the edge. If you can see the apex clearly with a magnifier, don’t worry about the burr.
If you don’t have a magnifier, you should work one side at a time. I alternate with maybe 10 or 20 strokes on one side, check for a burr, then 10 or 20 strokes on the other side, check for a burr. Of course a burr always appears on the side opposite from your last strokes.
As I’m finishing an edge, I’ll switch to very light, alternating strokes for the last 10 or so strokes. This seems to remove any residual burrs.
Last night I was sharpening a couple of lightweight Buck folders for a friend. Both had unsharpened factory edges and were in good shape. The first was a snap - I started with 800’s at 20 dps on both sides and had a clean edge in about 30 strokes. The factory edge was probably less than 18 dps. The second clamped up very nicely, but the factory edge was about 24 deg on the left and 21 on the right. I had to go down to my 400’s to form a newly profiled edge at 20 dps. Without a magnifier, I would have struggled for quite a while trying to form a burr. Sometimes, you have to be patient.
[quote quote=“Zamfir” post=20335]Ohh yeah for sure! It is soooooooo worth having a decent eye loupe. I got this one:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CL1POW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
[/quote]
Yep, the loop is your friend!
Dropped off some knives the other day at an electronics place.
They had one of those dentist type large magnifiers with a light … WOW!
The things you can clearly see with 2 eyes … got to find me one of those, with the articulating arms.
I use a handheld microscope with a 20" widescreen monitor on my sharpening bench. I can’t imagine going back to working without a net.
For knives worth over about $50, I check with the 'scope after every grit. For lesser knives, I use the 'scope to make sure I’ve established a full length apex, then zip, zip, zip through the grits. Maybe 10 strokes with each grit for each 2 inches of blade length. So for a 4-inch blade, I’ll use care to confirm that I’ve successfully formed an apex with my 400’s, then do 20 strokes each side for 600, 800 and 1000 grit stones. Then I’ll do alternating strokes (maybe 10 total each side) very lightly with the last grit to remove any residual burr.
… or you could send it to me for a regrind 
as that is what it really needs! But you HAVE to get a burr otherwise you have not truly apexed the edge. Look down at it from under a bright light with the edge facing up and see if you have any light reflecting off of the edge, if so then it has not been apexed.
ref. the regrind, here is one i just finished up similar, recently:
before:
Really nice job, Josh.
[quote quote=“razoredgeknives” post=20374]… or you could send it to me for a regrind as that is what it really needs! But you HAVE to get a burr otherwise you have not truly apexed the edge. Look down at it from under a bright light with the edge facing up and see if you have any light reflecting off of the edge, if so then it has not been apexed.
ref. the regrind, here is one i just finished up similar, recently:
before:
[/quote]
Damn Josh, Nice work!
Did you belt and Jig that?
Perfect.
[quote quote=“zig” post=20417]]
Damn Josh, Nice work!
Did you belt and Jig that?
Perfect.[/quote]
Nah it was freehand on my belt sander against the 10" wheel
[quote quote=“razoredgeknives” post=20421][quote quote=“zig” post=20417]]
Damn Josh, Nice work!
Did you belt and Jig that?
Perfect.[/quote]
Nah it was freehand on my belt sander against the 10" wheel[/quote]
You riding the 10" directly for the hollow grind?
One side at a time?
Not sure I follow… what do you mean directly?
Give me a buz and we can discus 
I will be up for about 4 more hours tonight if you have free… you got my # or it’s on my website
Well now wait a sec..don’t hide it from us..lol. I think what he is asking is..since you did it on your belt sander with the 10" wheel then you would have a slight hollow grind to the regrind being it was cut on the outer diameter of the 10"wheel..unless you mean you did it on an attachment on your belt sander that is a 10" sanding disk wheel where the wheel spins around and then the grind would be flat instead of having the 10" diameter wheel hollow grind to it. Was I right? Was that what you meant?
What was the answer?
Did I win?
What did I win?
:woohoo:
[quote quote=“Zamfir” post=20433]Well now wait a sec..don’t hide it from us..lol. I think what he is asking is..since you did it on your belt sander with the 10" wheel then you would have a slight hollow grind to the regrind being it was cut on the outer diameter of the 10"wheel..unless you mean you did it on an attachment on your belt sander that is a 10" sanding disk wheel where the wheel spins around and then the grind would be flat instead of having the 10" diameter wheel hollow grind to it. Was I right? Was that what you meant?
What was the answer?
Did I win?
What did I win?
:woohoo:[/quote]
I just didn’t want to de-rail the thread lol. Yes, I re-ground the blade with a hollow grind since it was against the 10" wheel, that is correct. A sanding disc would have made it a flat grind, not a hollow. =)