The perfect combination of toothy and polished

Legacy Forum Archive thoughtstheoriesscience-related-to-sharpening
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Hello everyone, I’m trying to figure out an answer to the ‘perfect’ combination of a polished edge and a toothy edge that has a nice bite. The goal is to have a knife that will for example bite into rope (tougher tasks) while still being able to have the ability to do more fine tasks that require a polished edge. I took my Benchmade mini Onlsaught 764 (154CM0 and sharpened it at 17 degrees per side, finishing with 1,600 grit ceramics then 2,000 grit sandpaper, then 5 and 3.5 balsa diamond pasted strops. I then micro beveled at 23 degrees per side for strength (same progression starting at 1,600 ceramics. Then made angles at 22 (all from 2,000 grit sandpaper taped to ceramics, then stropped at that angle for the polish), 21 degrees, 20 degrees, 19 degrees, then 18. Blended them all together so I had a 18-23 degree convex. I did an additional sandpapering at 17 and 16 per side to help blend it into the full flat grind.

The knife was then taken off of the Wicked Edge and stropped on Stropmans green compound (estimated .50 microns) then his red compound, (estimated .125 microns). FINALLY when I finished the knife was mirror-like, but not perfect. It whittled hair nicely just as it should. I went to cut some paracord to see how it would perform and though it will easily push through it, the cord would slick along the length of the edge. This was extremely sharp but not aggressive enough though you could feel the ‘grab’ when you felt the edge with your finger.

My questions are, where do you think lies the perfect balance of teeth and polish? Would it be better to sharpen to 1,600 ceramics and jump straight to red compound? Or finish on 1,000 grit and start at black then white compound? (Around 6 and 2.5 microns). What are your thoughts/experiences? I will in the end establish this edge at the micro bevel and polish the back bevels. This applies to EDC and hard use blades if you will.

Thanks for any information guys. Hopefully girls too :wink:

-Tj

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For heavy duty EDC use I’ve always considered 1000 grit diamond to be my personal gold standard, and it seems like a few folks agree with that so I must be on to something :slight_smile:

I rarely polish knives out beyond 1000 grit, and most of my stropping on the WEPS is just to clean up and bring out a little extra sharpness. My last 154CM blade was a Hogue, which I kept at 1000 grit straight off the stones and used for everything from cutting through defunct appliance power cords to chopping down saplings around the farm.

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[quote quote=“ApexGS” post=10497]For heavy duty EDC use I’ve always considered 1000 grit diamond to be my personal gold standard, and it seems like a few folks agree with that so I must be on to something :slight_smile:

I rarely polish knives out beyond 1000 grit, and most of my stropping on the WEPS is just to clean up and bring out a little extra sharpness. My last 154CM blade was a Hogue, which I kept at 1000 grit straight off the stones and used for everything from cutting through defunct appliance power cords to chopping down saplings around the farm.[/quote]

I couldn’t agree more Tom! That is one of the finest EDC edges around in my opinion…

Tj, in my opinion the perfect answer to your question is found in a micro-bevel (preferably with the 1k diamond). Let us know how it goes!

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This is an interesting topic that often gets heated in the kitchen knife world!

The perfect marriage of tooth and polish is always subjective, but here’s my take:

Toothy edges are caused by coarser grits and produce a better “ripping” edge, while polished edges are formed by finer grits, and produce better “slicing” abilities.

Most production EDC knives are factory sharp to about 220 grit and then buffed with some sort of fine compound. This leaves a toothy edge that cuts into everything, caused by the 220 grit scratches, but the fine compound “polishes the grooves” to give it that smoother slicing ability.

What Tj did was to essentially establish very fine scratches at the edge, which makes it more a slicing edge, and the reason it didn’t seem to grab onto what it was cutting.

What’s best? Well that depends, of course. Since it seems you want a little more bite, I would keep the 1600 WEPS and then skip to the 3.5 micron diamond on balsa. (which diamond product are you using - WEPS paste or Ken Schwartz spray? that makes a difference). Your might not have the mirror, but you will have the smoothness of the 3.5 micron combined with some tooth from the 1600

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Welcome to the forum! :slight_smile: Great question… no simple answer (although you got some good ones already). My .02… experiment with what you have, and find what works best for your needs. That’s the beauty of sharpening your own knives. You might consider eliminating the stropping with the Stropman, if you’re looking for an edge with more bite.

Let us know what you come up with!

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Welcome Tj!

As Tom said, it’s really subjective, but this is what I do. I sharpen a blade up to a level that it can still withstand slight mistreatment with a 1K diamond stone. This seems to be for me 10K Chosera’s followed by some stropping. Then I do only a FEW (say, 3) light passes with the 1K diamond stone.

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[quote quote=“mark76” post=10512]Welcome Tj!

As Tom said, it’s really subjective, but this is what I do. I sharpen a blade up to a level that it can still withstand slight mistreatment with a 1K diamond stone. This seems to be for me 10K Chosera’s followed by some stropping. Then I do only a FEW (say, 3) light passes with the 1K diamond stone.[/quote]

Is there any gain in performance from the polish of the 10k Chosera when the final edge is touched by the 1k diamond? Or is this more of an esthetics gain?

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Yeah its pretty much esthetic :slight_smile:

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Thanks Josh.
Am wondering if I were to try for a “combo edge” of sorts, both nice slicing and push cutting . . . .if such an edge exists . . . Could it be produced by establishing the bevel at a coarse grit, say 600, then doing refinement in the 5k to 10k zone resulting in a polished toothy edge combo?

Seems I’ve read this question before, but don’t recall the answer.

Thanks

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I would get with Curtis… And maybe mark… I think they have played around with this some but I have not… Sorry!

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Thanks for the replies guys! Since this was posted last year, I have actually changed up my methods and techniques since then. I no longer use my Wicked Edge and an actually going to try to sell it soon. I’ve once again started to free hand again.

Here’s my findings in a great all around edge this far:

I distress the edge by grinding a flat on the edge if needed. Then I reprofile if needed on my Shapton Glass 220 until the flat is gone, without creating a burr. I’ll alternate strokes until I’m satisfied, which is normally about 20 or so LIGHT strokes. I repeat until I stop at around 1,000 grit Shapton Glass. The finish on very few, light stokes on Strop mans black compound, then red, the blue. (Making the switch to Ken Schwartz PolyChristalline sprays on nano cloth soon).

I’m going to cut for a moment and explain why I’ve come to appreciate a well done 1k edge.

I did this experiment I call “5 days of sharp.” Each day I would finish off my Spyderco Tenacious edge with a stone, starting at 220 one day, 500 the next, then, 1,000, then 2,000, lastly 4,000. And each day get a feel of how the edge reacts to daily things I cut.

I noticed that 1k, even though not very reflective, just cut so well. Push and draw cuts. The edge is exactly how I want it. Sticky. SO sticky. If you go to feel for sharpness it grabs you immediately. A scary feeling B)

A lot of this comes down to technique though, I can shave off of my 220 if I did it right. The 1k edge is not super aggressive but it gets into the crazy levels of sharpness once I’m done stropping. (Hair whittling ect…) The finish is a lightly reflective, fine, even satin finish. Very attractive :).

Currently I’ve been playing around in the 1k to 4k realm to see how I like it.

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I have found that for a knife to cut line easily and for instance plastic surrounding processed ham I use a King 800 grit stone I got the massive version it weight 4KG it muds up quickly and can hollow but what I do now rather than flattening I find the high spots and work on those to level the stone (in fact I have never flattened it with any flattening stone and I even keep the mud dried out and although I have not used it yet it can be used for polishing or cleaning a knife or sprinkling onto a stone.Its too good to pour down the drain) and work on those areas this way I have not needed to flatten it and the stone is reasonable flat .
With these utility blades I hone them on the stone as well if I want something more refined I hone on a 4/5K I have 1 10K & a 16K that I use one razors or hairdressing scissors since it is easy to convex them by hand.When I finish I the shears and the razor I do a couple of passes on a leather strop with some CBN spray but I probable do 2/3 light passes each side and that is it . The sharpening of razors & hair shears I do almost entirely with edge trailing strokes I only do a back and forth motion if they need changes or repairs.

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[quote quote=“LeoBarr” post=17461]I have found that for a knife to cut line easily and for instance plastic surrounding processed ham I use a King 800 grit stone I got the massive version it weight 4KG it muds up quickly and can hollow but what I do now rather than flattening I find the high spots and work on those to level the stone (in fact I have never flattened it with any flattening stone and I even keep the mud dried out and although I have not used it yet it can be used for polishing or cleaning a knife or sprinkling onto a stone.Its too good to pour down the drain) and work on those areas this way I have not needed to flatten it and the stone is reasonable flat .
With these utility blades I hone them on the stone as well if I want something more refined I hone on a 4/5K I have 1 10K & a 16K that I use one razors or hairdressing scissors since it is easy to convex them by hand.When I finish I the shears and the razor I do a couple of passes on a leather strop with some CBN spray but I probable do 2/3 light passes each side and that is it . The sharpening of razors & hair shears I do almost entirely with edge trailing strokes I only do a back and forth motion if they need changes or repairs.[/quote]

leo you gotta start doing some youtube videos man… your a beast! I definitely think you have the most versatile set-up around here anyway, which is good. sharpening should never be done through a single approach every time! :silly:

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Thank you!
At the moment i do not have anything to film with other than an iPhone or iPad and secondly I have a way to go to compare with the likes of Jon from Japanese Knife Imports or the legendary Murray Carter .
I have picked up a lot over the last couple of years but the more I discover the more I realise I have to learn .
My biggest medium of sharpening to master at the moment is ceramics those knives from the other day inspite of doing by hand were still not great so in the end I put them on my Edge Pro with the special diamond stone 1200grit I did not finish them on diamond tape 3K which maybe I should have but i did not want the edge too polished . The end result was in my mind just acceptable if I rate a steel knife I have sharpened on a scale of 1-10 I would say my best sharpening is just under 7 and I would say the ceramics were just over 4 this is a scale that Murray Carter uses He rates a blade he can shave with by his standards as a 7 so I am probable marking my results a little high.
I must admit to doing more & more freehand sharpening it is way more satisfying and is quicker one frustration I have found with thew WE is occasionally the stone guides have slipped whist I have been sharpening on both occasions this has happened I have not noticed until near the end . Also with the bench stones there is no setting up it is straight in .
The Edge pro that I finished off the ceramics on is quite tiring to use since the small blades have to be kept flat on the table and the ball on the stone arm bruises my palm especially when I was doing 400 passes per side working from Atoma 140-400-600- the Edge Pro fine diamond stone .
I think if I try doing another ceramic i will do them by hand but intentionally convex the blade raising the spine slighty on each pass since this give a much easier edge to achieve since it is unlikely that I raise the spine too much it maybe that on some passes the spine is not raised enough but this technique seem more forgiving and I have had better results on ceramics using this technique I tried to be more precise on these and this I think is counter productive at least at my skill level on ceramics since it take much longer for a visible image of the bevel to show up where as on steel 5 passes is enough to see a difference and if it is wrong it is easy to correct .

Whilst on the subject of ceramics and belt grinders Ken suggests using plain linen belts and then using his potions on the belts so diamond / CBNs sprays or pastes this is probable the way ahead to sharpen them cost effectively .
My own pride is to master doing them by hand but if it is for a paying customer the linen belts with Ken’s sprays seems to be the way ahead.

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[quote quote=“razoredgeknives” post=17463] …

leo you gotta start doing some youtube videos man… your a beast! I definitely think you have the most versatile set-up around here anyway, which is good. sharpening should never be done through a single approach every time! :silly:[/quote]

Totally agree, Josh…

You’re a beast, Leo! I would love to see you in action…

I love this forum – there are so many beasts-masters here. I have learned from every video I’ve watched.

To see someone take a specific knife, show how they place & position it in the vise and the progression is a “master class” that transcends space… we don’t have to be in the same room at the same time for “masters” to impart lessons to “apprentices”.

And, because they are archived in the forum or on youtube, they also transcend time…

Sometimes the lessons are small sometimes major breakthroughs.

I, personally, could really see the value in having an available library of Wicked Edge Certified Master Series of training/education videos.

“Virtually”, and really, working together to improve our skills…

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I also really like the fact that discussion of any sharpening method is allowed, even if it is a rival product. I love, I mean love, my WE and will never be without one. But I have a lot of convex edge knives and Japanese knives that I prefer to sharpen by hand. I have learned a lot in my few months on this forum and, for better or for worse, have been sharpening knives for over 40 years (started young :wink:

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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As an honest question, why would you call the edge sharp if it just slid along the paracord? Put it another way, if you left an edge really coarse, and after use it had dulled it would likely do the same. Both edges can’t cut the paracord, why is one dull and the other one sharp when they both physically behave the same way if you try to slice the rope?

Here is a simple experiment :

-take a piece of rope (or something similar)
-sharpen a knife with a very coarse grit, say 36
-make a slice for a specific length and record the amount of force used

Now increase the grit and repeat until very high grits (8k+) or you become bored. The force should keep decreasing until it hits some point at which a draw isn’t needed as it will just sink through the rope once that force is applied.

If at any time it slips then the knife didn’t get sharper, for some reason it was dulled by the higher grit, often through apex rounding. Now a lower grit finish in some cases may (will) produce higher edge retention, but it can’t produce higher initial sharpness.

The main reason it is often argued that it does is because there is an over reliance of strops/buffers to produce polishes which tend to rounding apexes. Often was is being compared then is a coarse edge with a V-formed apex vs a polished edge with a rounded one.

As a point of interest/reference, with 1/2" hemp you should be able to do a cut with a 2" draw with a load of 4-5 lbs with a very sharp edge (with a thin cross section). With a very coarse edge the force will by higher, ~10 lbs with a 36 grit edge.

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Thanks for your clear explanation, Cliff! I think many of us understand how a (leather) strop can dull an edge. Or how misuse of a (higher grit) stone can dull an edge. But if you use a stone properly, is there any way in which a higher grit stone can dull an edge sharpened at a less high grit?

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Here I am again months later with another update. Thank you Cliff for stopping in. You are definitely correct and reading my post where my little experiment obviously took place in the past I have learned much more. I am almost certain that back in the day I would have been using strops, probably incorrectly where it would have a rounding effect, and my stone skills are not what they are today :).

Nowadays most of my EDC edges are just straight 140 grit from my Atoma Diamond plate. Reason being I don’t have a lot of time to progress higher and to be honest if you just take the time to really refine your edge with very light alternating strokes, it leaves an edge that shaves, push cuts newspaper, and slices like an animal. When I do treat myself to progressing higher in grits, I tend to favor edges no higher than 1,000 grit. In fact, I normally stop at 220 or 500 Shapton Glass. With proper technique, of course, for me, those grits are more than enough to handle every day tasks and then some.

Lately I have been experimenting with 140 grits edges, and just giving maybe 5 strokes per side progressively up to my Shapton 8k, just to refine the 140 grit, since I no longer use strops for high grits. The results are interesting. I love the teeth from the 140 but I get the polished sensation when I feel the edge.

More information is surely to come.

Thanks guys.

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[quote quote=“mark76” post=19900]

[…]
But if you use a stone properly, is there any way in which a higher grit stone can dull an edge sharpened at a less high grit?[/quote]

If you use a stone properly then almost by definition it can’t happen, but “proper” use of some stones is not trivial at all.

If a stone is very muddy for example then that slurry tends to make it very difficult to prevent an apex from rounding. If you want to see this happen fairly easily then take a King 1000 and try to get an edge which push cuts newsprint. The stone will put a very high finish on the sides of the edge but it can be really difficult to actually refine the apex as the stone is so soft and muddy. I like a King 1000 to preset an apex before a micro-bevel, but would never pick it to actually apply one unless I wanted some kind of challenge or amusement.