Reprofiling s110v PM2.. How long should it take -hair whittling

Legacy Forum Archive techniques-and-sharpening-strategies
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I have been working now the 3rd time trying to get a hair whittling edge which I achieved today but what a mess.. too many scratches in the bevel. What I would like first of all is to know how long on a WE should this process be to have no visible scratches upon completion of a s110v PM2 and to get a hair whittling edge. I do not care if there are microscopic scratches as I cannot see them but I need to learn proper technique as I am a bit baffled.

I have the following but not sure what order to use them other than the 80-1000 diamonds.. 1500 /glass 1200/1600 1.4/.6 6 micron film, leather strops with 4 and 2 microns .5 and .1 micron kangaroo leather .025micron, .005 micron

This is my third retry and this time I started with the 80 ..Again ended hair whittling but not attractive. and that is why I am wondering how long this should take and what technique should be used as obviously I am quite ignorant here but thankfully ignorance is not a terminal condition and the cure is knowledge.

 

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I would guess that you are fighting scratches from at least the 80 grit, it’s very coarse, and will leave deep scratches, especially if you apexed with it. As you go up in finer grits, you need to make sure you’ve removed the scratches from the previous coarser grit.

I don’t go for mirror polishes anymore. For me it seems too time consuming. Hours. Basically, you need to do more strokes with your finer grits, i.e., remove 80 grit scratches with the 100. Remove the 100 grit scratches with the 200 and so on.

 

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Cmyhero, for this reason it’s recommended for the sharpener’s technique to change the direction of your stroke to impart a different direction scratch pattern from the previous grit. This makes it visually more obvious that you have underlying scratches, still to remove, from your previous grit. If you go up to the next grit and see these underlying scratches, sometimes the only way to obliterate them is to step back down to the previous grit and give it more time. Time, consistency both in stroke direction and hand hold pressure and patience are necessary. Your results are tied into the nature of your stones. Are they fully broken in yet? If not yet, then it’ll take more time and patience to do the job your looking for. Pretty simply, when you think you’re ready to move on up to the next grit, do another 25 or 50 alternating strokes and take another look at it.

Exercise care when wiping your steel clean to inspect your work for readiness, to move on. It’s very easy to impart a deep stray or random scratch across your nice even consistent scratch pattern with a wipe that has metal debris imbedded in it.

Use starting diamond stones of a higher grit, (e.g., 200 or 400 grit) that will remove steel with out having to work too long and hard and having to press too hard. Avoid low grits 50/80 except in the situation where your doing a total reprofile and removing a lot of metal or removing a lot of damaged steel. These very coarse diamonds leave very large scratch scars that are hard and time consuming to remove and can waste a lot more steel than you may have needed to. Try the higher grits first, (200 or 400). If there not getting the job done removing enough steel, only then should you step down one stone grit and try again.

If you started a knife with 50 or 80 grit and have gone through the progression, like you are saying. Only to be displeased with the results. It is not necessary to go all the back to the very start and use 50 or 80 grit again. You probably could have started the “do-over” with 400 or 600 grit. After laying down a good even consistent scratch pattern with the 600 if you still see underlying scratches, only then would I step back down one grit to 400. Then if after laying down a good consistent even scratch pattern with the 400 grit if still there are random stray scratches showing through, then step back one grit again to 200 grit…

Diamonds low grit # to higher grit # (coarse to smooth) then ceramics 1200/1600, 1.4/0.6, then strops 4/2, 1/0.5 or instead of ceramics use the lapping films progression followed by the strop progression.

Be very careful wiping your bevels for inspection when you get as far as the ceramics or lapping films…it’s very easy to scratch your steel when your surface is that polished.

 

 

 

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Mike and Marc are correct in their comments. I’d add a bit based on my experience. For one thing, you don’t have to remove all the scratches to be hair-whittling sharp. What matters is how keen the edge is.

First off, I think that you (cmyhero) are way, way overdoing the progression, and as the guys said, you needn’t go back to low grits to start, when you’ve already found the apex. You’re just creating new deep scratches unnecessarily. I don’t go below 400-grit except to re-profile a blade, and I take care not to touch the apex with 200-grit or lower. If you insist on starting over, I’d suggest that you start with your 400-grit and use the alternate direction strategy to find and remove deeper scratches. If I’m not happy with the final results of a sharpening, I’ll go back to 800-grit.

My standard sharpening these days is to go 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, then 6 and 3 micron film. Done well, this alone will give a pretty nice mirror on your bevels. Generally speaking, the scratches from the prior grit are almost always wiped away after about 20 strokes, but that doesn’t necessarily finish the edge, as the grit that causes the scratch takes bigger chunks out of the apex than the size of the scratch. If I’m working toward a “hair-whittling” edge, I’ll do two, three or even four times as many strokes with each stage to refine the edge. And I will stay with edge-leading (downward) strokes only, until I get to the film. Edge-trailing strokes tend to break away bigger pieces of the apex. A final stropping helps to put a final polish on the edge and any of the pastes or emulsions will work. I’ve had good luck with hardwood strops, but any of the offerings will work. I just loaded a new set of leather strops with 2.5 and 1.0 micron paste, but haven’t had a chance to try it yet, except on a mule I use for experiments. As fresh leather, I started out at -2 dps, but had to drop to -1 dps before it reached the apex.

I don’t use my ceramics anymore, as they aren’t as uniform as diamond film.

Try not to overthink your process, as it will simply frustrate you while it should be satisfying you. If you’re really new at this, keep it simple and be patient, as there is a learning curve in achieving the optimum results.

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Yes thank you, the reason I went back was because scratches were not being removed so I went backwards until I got to the 80 which I thought was necessary to remove the 50 that were from the KME. I thought this was necessary as I was told when starting 18 months ago that I need the next smaller grit to erase the previous scratch and I could not skip the sequence. In any event my sawing motion has not worked other than allowing a poor looking edge that is hair whittling.

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There are no hard and fast rules about grit progressions. Find what works for you and stick with it. You can skip sequences, but you’ll take longer with the finer grit and put unnecessary wear on your stones.

As for skipping what appears to be a logical step in your normal progression, consider that two years ago, we would have followed a progression from 1000 grit diamonds to 1200 and 1600 grit ceramics. Now we’ve added 1500-grit diamonds, after which I would have gone to 15, 12, 9 and then 6 micron film. And where would we fit in the 1.4 micron and 0.6 micron ceramics? Clay showed us that stepping from 1000-grit right to 6 micron film produced excellent results. About this same time, he began to offer blocks with 1500-grit diamonds on one side and glass platens on the other. Everyone who’s tried it seems to love it and have gone the route of 1000, 1500 and 6 micron film, again, with excellent results. This backstory is not about filling in the gaps, but developing more efficient progressions. There are a lot of ceramic stones out there not being used, but they still have a place where you have run out of the needed film, or where the PSA film is too pricey for the casual user.

I’m not sure what isn’t working in your “sawing motion”. I do it a lot and it seems to work fine for me. Whether I’m working toward a mirror edge or not, I try to always use the same direction for each grit. 400, 800, 1500 all are worked down and toward me, while 600, 1000 and 6 micron are all down and away from me. If I am working toward a mirror finish, I’ll check with the 'scope after each grit to make sure I’ve removed all the scratches from the previous grit.

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I’m assuming, I hope correctly that by “sawing motion” you mean up/down/up/down, a scrubbing motion? I can easily say I don’t sharpen any knife with my WEPS that doesn’t get a scrubbing. I use it on ever knife I sharpen.

The scrubbing method is very effective but you need to use it and apply it properly. The motion can remove a lot of metal in one confined area. It will lay down a very straight consistent even scratch pattern. It’s important when using it, to spread the scrub well and evenly alone the entire length and to blend it together and balance it also from knife side to side alternatingly, so as not to remove more metal from one side, than the other. I start with a scrubbing motion with each grit I use. The scrub lets me lay down a scratch pattern to obliterate the previous grit’s scratch pattern. It is very easy to monitor my progress visually using the USB Microscope. Then after I have the basic bevel shape and scratch pattern I want, then I begin an edge leading stroke alternatingly, side to side. This blends the scratch pattern together and evens out the apex.

When everything appears well and good, I progress to the next grit and begin again with the scrub. etc., etc.