As most who have followed my posts know I am new to WEPS but I have made a serious commitment to succeed and enjoy the process of using it. I ordered the PP2 about 8 weeks ago and took delivery about a week or so ago. I have asked a bunch of questions prior to receiving it and subsequent and as a result have continued to add to my arsenal of stones and strops since getting it. My most recent acquisition was the super fine ceramic, which I just got Friday (a couple of days ago).
I was happy with it and also unhappy with it at the same time. What I mean by that is that it definitely does bridge the gap between diamond 1000 grit and ceramic micro fine and changes the grit in a perceptible way to a more fine pattern. That is the good. What I didn’t think was great was the feel and texture of it. It sort of felt less refined than the finest diamond at 1000 grit and the very glassy smooth heavy micro fine ceramic. The super fine feels a bit soft and light like it wasn’t fully cooked in the kiln or something, at least compared with the other excellent stones I was sent.
So having said all that, I think it really does serve the intended purpose of smoothing the scratches to allow the much finer micro ceramic stone to do it’s job of polishing, but I still can’t help but wonder if the 5k/10k Chosera stone might not do the job even better or perhaps the Chosera 2000/3000 which is the next step up from the 1000 according to the grit scale.
I can’t seem to get a clear answer from anyone and just measuring grits seems to be a bit misleading because the different types of stones seem to get different results at comparable grit levels.
The problem is that I have already purchased the super fine ceramic and the only real way to find out the answer is to buy the Chosera stones. To do it right, I would need to buy both the 2000/3000 and the 5k/10k, but that is a major investment on top of what already is a gigantic expense in buying the PP2 plus all the other additional accessory stones I have bought.
For what it would cost, I could buy a new generator I have had my eye on for example or a really nice new custom knife which I can sharpen to extreme levels with what I already have.
So just to be clear, I am not complaining about the Super Fine Ceramic. It does what it says it is supposed to do, but could it be improved on IF I had bought the Choseras instead. What do you think. Again, I am pursuing this because I know others have expressed a similar interest and at least to me it is still unresolved.
Scott, Thanks for the feedback. I was researching Chosera’s tonight and found this on site that sells different brands of Naniwa stones. This helps explains what was discussed recently about different factors in stone performance other than just grit and that grit standard is not always a simple 1,2,3 process of just follow the descending grit #'s. I.e. different stone perform differently even the tough the grit is higher or lower than other stones.
“Chosera stones are harder than the Naniwa Superstones and so take much longer to develop a hollow in use. These stones also cut faster, especially in the rougher stones – 3000 grit and larger. The 400-grit Chosera stone, for instance, works faster than the 220-grit Superstone, and is only marginally slower than the Shapton 120-grit. Normally the Chosera stones only need to have their surfaces moistened a bit with water.” From http://www.fine-tools.com/naniwa-chosera.html
Like there should be a 1200/1600 that was like the micro’s in feel, touch and weight.
Like it’s a cheap addition or something.
Strange that we both feel that way.
edit - Notice I used quite a few “likes” in there so I don’t get slammed.
Like there should be a 1200/1600 that was like the micro’s in feel, touch and weight.
Like it’s a cheap addition or something.
Strange that we both feel that way.
edit - Notice I used quite a few “likes” in there so I don’t get slammed. ;)[/quote]
A lot of people have that reaction, especially initially because they are so different. Over time, I think you’ll come to enjoy them. I find mine to be an indispensable tool.
I agree with Clay. It definitely serves a purpose and does what it is supposed to, but it is different from what you will come to expect if you only have a 1000 diamond and a micro fine. When I think ceramic, just referring to my commonly used ceramics like dishes or sculptures or ceramic parts used for electrical applications for example, I think of very smooth, dense solid or hard surfaces. This stone is not any of that. It is, I am sure out of necessity, brought to a specific finish needed to offer the grit stage between the 1000 and the micro fine and still be durable enough to last through many uses. I would guess that this is a fine line and probably required a certain amount of compromise to find that balance.
I think it is the most cost effective solution to bridging the gap effectively. I think if you don’t mind spending a lot more money and dealing with some other issues you can get about the same results with some combination of whetstones and have that nice feel of a dense fine stone if that is what you like and I get that. At some point I may replace the super fine with the Chosera 2000/3000 and or 5k/10k, but for now the SF does the job well enough. I will be interested in it’s durability, given the more fragile appearance and texture it has. But Clay and others report that it has performed well for many knives now, so I have a high expectation and level of confidence that it will last.
[quote quote=“wickededge” post=6308]
A lot of people have that reaction, especially initially because they are so different. Over time, I think you’ll come to enjoy them. I find mine to be an indispensable tool.[/quote]
Clay and anyone else,
1.) For a re-profile of a factory edge what do you prefer (ceramics or chosera’s)?
2.) Minor touch up (just a little worse than strops alone can handle) what do you choose.
Major touch ups for me are like a re-profile, just less work and the angle is already set. Use a lot of stones but not the coarsest.
[quote quote=“Geocyclist” post=6323][quote quote=“wickededge” post=6308]
A lot of people have that reaction, especially initially because they are so different. Over time, I think you’ll come to enjoy them. I find mine to be an indispensable tool.[/quote]
Clay and anyone else,
1.) For a re-profile of a factory edge what do you prefer (ceramics or chosera’s)?
2.) Minor touch up (just a little worse than strops alone can handle) what do you choose.
Major touch ups for me are like a re-profile, just less work and the angle is already set. Use a lot of stones but not the coarsest.[/quote]
I always drop back to the diamonds for a re-profile. For touch-ups where the strops aren’t enough, I usually use ceramics.
If it’s a knife I’ve sharpened with waterstones, then I’ll use those again to touch it up.
Scott, that was an excellent review of the Super Fine Ceramics. Clay, thank you for your insight also. I believe my decision is made that I will include the Super Fine Ceramics with the Pro-Pack II when I purchase. Now on to convince the better half why I “need” this!
Happy to help. Perhaps part of the confusion is actually just in the name. These stones are more fine than the 1000 grit but much less than the micro fine. I feel that the use of the word “super” might lead some to think that this is a bit more smooth and “fine” than it really is. I don’t have another stone like the Choseras mentioned to compare it to, so I may be off base here. But I think just logically, that the label could be leading some to think it will be a bit different than what they receive. Let me know what you think when you get it.
If you understand the history, you better understand the naming conundrum that Clay went through.
For a few years there was nothing finer than the superfine ceramics, other than strops and much later the waterstones.
When Clay got the micron rated ceramics (from a different vendor, as he was struggling with the maker of the superfines) they were equivalent to a finer grit… Now what do you do? Change the naming of a line that has been in existence for a good while, and you hope to get back at some point (?) or figure out a new name for the finer stones??
Clay asked for suggestions, and many were made. He chose microfine. It is what it is, I think. The description of the stones is clear on the web page.
Then we have the question of how you assign a name that will be interpreted the same by everyone..
Good luck with that!
Hmmmm.
I say, read the description, search the forums, and make a decision.
All of the second guessing is pretty moot at this point.
Just my thoughts…
Phil
I will get a PP or PPII. If I get the PP then I will also get the arms upgrade. I don’t really care about what base comes with it. I will be getting various strops and pastes, so the difference there doesn’t matter either.
The main hanging point is to get either super fine + micro ceramics or 2-3 sets of Chosera’s. I know the Chosera’s are slightly more expensive but this is not an deciding factor. But I do not want to buy both ceramics and choseras.
Most of my sharpening is Benchmade folders, s30v, CPM-M4, and 154 cm. I want to achieve polished edges to the nake eye on knives that are mostly users. I am leaning towards the chosera’s based on positive comments about feel and feedback as well as how they polish.
If I can slice/push cut phone book paper like a ninja I am happy. I would like to whittle hair one day, but I don’t see taking every edge to that level.
If anyone has both please give you opinion. Or if you only have one I would like your opinion too.
If so you got my take on it. I recenly ordered the superfine and microfine stones to play with. I have not recieved them as of yet, so I can’t make a direct comparison. I can tell you that from my perspective as of now, I would not be without my Choseras… period. If you can swing it, get the 800/1000, 2000/3000 and 5K/10K stones to use after the 1000 diamonds. If you really want to spend some cash and as you said the cost is not important to you, get the 400/600 stones as well. They make quick work of the diamond scratches and set up a great transition to the 800 or 1000 stones.
Check the links that I posted to Tom’s blog. He explains it all much better than I could…or have the time to do here.
Phil
BTW. If you wait a couple of weeks for me to get the WEPS ceramics and do some sharpening with them… I will have some direct comparison impressions. You will notice that Scott asked this question…then I asked for anyone out there with the waterstones to chime in. We got two replies.
I will once again jump in with yet another opinion (as if you didn’t think I would). :lol:
This afternoon I started sharpening my favorite knife. A Grayman, Satu which is S30v steel. This knife comes with a very unsophisticated edge at about 22 degrees. I reprofiled it to 18 degrees with my 50- 80 grit stones which really grind the steel and leave a very, very rough scratchy surface, like a rasp file. So this was a real test. Long story short, I worked through the normal progression of stones 100> 200>400>600>800>1000. I used about 3x’s as many strokes as before and almost feather touch pressure. I began to see the scratches from each previous stone smoothing out more than ever before, but the 1000 still left a mostly non glossy finish although the scratch pattern was quite fine. The next stone I used was the 1200 super ceramic. I used it dry and again nearly feather touch pressure and many, many more strokes than before. Something new happened this time. Compared to each of the two previous knives I sharpened using the super fine and all the other stones in the normal progression, this time, a very glossy, reflective mirror surface began to emerge with the 1200. It was more glossy than I got after using my micro fine and several pastes and leathers, including my kangaroo with no added grit. I was more than shocked at how nice my Satu was looking. I went to the 1600 and it became even glossier. Beyond anything I have gotten to date even with all my best polishing stuff.
Up to now, I would have been totally happy if this were the final result and I like a mirror finish as you know from all my posts. I am now prepared to say unequivocally and without reservation, that the super fine, 1200-1600 is a great stone set and will easily get you to as shiny, glossy and reflective a finish when used in the total progression to leather and pastes as the limits of your metal will allow. I had to end at the 1600 stone because my wife gave me an ultimatum and I had to go.i still need to move to the micro and beyond, and must say I am enthusiastic and can’t wait to see the final result. I’ll try to take a picture for you, but take my word for now. It is coming along great.
So I will not (and would not) tell anyone what to buy or use, but I was going to buy the Chosera’s because I did not think the super fine was as good as the Chosera’s. But I am a convert and now know from my own experience that this is a very capable stone set which is for me indispensable.
I am done buying stones for now. I think I have arrived at where I wanted to be when I first began. :woohoo:
[quote quote=“Scott Sherman” post=6365]I will once again jump in with yet another opinion (as if you didn’t think I would). :lol:
I am now prepared to say unequivocally and without reservation, that the super fine, 1200-1600 is a great stone set and will easily get you to as shiny, glossy and reflective a finish when used in the total progression to leather and pastes as the limits of your metal will allow.
So I will not (and would not) tell anyone what to buy or use, but I was going to buy the Chosera’s because I did not think the super fine was as good as the Chosera’s. But I am a convert and now know from my own experience that this is a very capable stone set which is for me indispensable.
I am done buying stones for now. I think I have arrived at where I wanted to be when I first began. :woohoo:[/quote]
Glad you are happy, really! I like reading your posts. It sounds like you are moving towards getting the results that make you pleased with your efforts.
I would never argue with your vast experience, but I can share mine…
As long as there is a different way, and maybe a better way (faster, finer, shinier) never say you are done…
Those are like famous last words before disappearing down the rabbit hole… Believe me.
I would also be cautious about making unequivocal recommendations based upon one sharpening session with one knife…with nothing to compare to.
Don’t mean to dampen your enthusiasm… really ! Just trying to be objective.
[quote quote=“PhilipPasteur” post=6368]
I would never argue with your vast experience, but I can share mine…
[color color=#ff0000]My experience is anything but vast[/color] :unsure:
As long as there is a different way, and maybe a better way (faster, finer, shinier) never say you are done…
Those are like famous last words before disappearing down the rabbit hole… Believe me.
I would also be cautious about making unequivocal recommendations based upon one sharpening session with one knife…with nothing to compare to.
[color color=#ff0000]Both are fair points and I can not argue with anything in this post. I may have misstated, I didn’t mean to offer this experience as much to say I recommend it as to just share what I would characterize as a discovery on my part. I was not 100% loving the super fine stones as I mentioned. They were not exactly what I thought they would be when I ordered them and felt them for the first time especially next to the other stones I have. But this admittedly anecdotal experience has left me much more enthusiastic for their potential, even if I can’t duplicate this result in my next knife. It has certainly shown me that at least so far, my lack of success has been more my fault than that of the equipment. So I thought I might share. Your milage may vary. I only want to be helpful. I am not trying to sell WE stuff for Clay, but credit should be given when it is due.[/color]
Don’t mean to dampen your enthusiasm… really ! Just trying to be objective.
