Sounds good. I would reprofile/sharpen a blade a few times and give it my best before I would give up on the blade.
I’ve got an interesting twist / update to the theme of microbevels….
Be careful what you decide to micro-bevel. It may be a permanent geometry.
So, as I progress and get more experience and confidence as well as broken in stones, I’m moving to some of my better knives while still avoiding the powdered steels… I decided to go at my Shun Yanagiba which has been hand, whet stone sharpened for probably 25 years. It’s a VG-10 steel and it has had a micro-bevel for a long time. When I did that, it was done to ease sharpening and make quick work of refining it back to what I thought was sharp. Now, it was phone book paper push-cutting sharp, but I wanted to restore the knife to its original geometry with a 16 deg primary bevel.
What a F2c*ing pain in the A$$ that was! No kidding, I probably put 5-6 hours in on grinding away at 100 grit diamond to finally hit the apex. It literally took me 2 days with multiple breaks between grinding sessions so ( have no exact hour count). I tried to keep the pressure light in spite of cursing in multiple languages in my head as I ground away. I had the knife in the low angle adapter and of course was only grinding a single side. Occasionally, after a few hours of thinking I was close to the apex, I’d break out the 3k and lightly stoke the backside ( flat, non-ground) to break any burr. Of course, this was a mental exercise of futility and I hadn’t hit the apex. Finally, after what seemed like my 100,000’th look at the apex on the usb scope, I was really really really close and could smell the fine edge wanting to appear. Yet alas, I grind and grind, edge leading, edge trailing, scrubbing, cross cross to try and introduce “smaller areas that need to be broken off”. I’d flip the stone upside down to try and use as close to 100% of the surface area as possible. I’d swap out to the other 100, again, in efforts to use all 100 grit stone surface evenly, or as evenly as possible. Eventually I thought I had eliminated any or almost the entire micro bevel and moved to the 200 stones as I kissed the apex.
For some clarification, I’d guess the initial micro bevel was at max 1 mm wide while the primary bevel is maybe 4 mm ( I didn’t actually measure…)
There are 4 points to this note:
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Careful when deciding to use a micro bevel. It’s really permanent unless you have the patience of Jobe and want to put in the effort required to restore the original geometry. I really should have gone to my Tormek to do that work, but I was interested in gaining WE experience.
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Is VG 10 really that hard to deal with with diamonds? I had sharpened 2 other shun vg10 blades quite easily. A paring knife and the mate utility knife.
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Could I possibly have worn out the 100 grit diamond stones in this endeavor? the stones don’t really seem worn out, they’re still making dust, but if a stone is expected to last 200-600 sharpening based on some bell curve of user skill/tactic and amount of steel removed, I’m certainly guessing these 100’s are, um, at least well worn in!
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Lock that micro-adjust jamb nut tight and, realize that with enough steel removal your angle will change and you may want to adjust your angle slightly to stay on 16.00 deg.
Late in my second day of grinding, I broke out the phone, hot Amazon, and ordered some 50/80 stones that I’ve already semi-broken in on my beater cheap steel survival knife. The initial 50 stokes per stone surface were really quite painful to listen to, but eventually that very course/agressive stone set seemed to settle in and with reasonable technique put a quite nice edge on some cheap presumably Chinese steel. I can’t imagine I’d ever hit a quality knife anywhere near the apex with the 50/80, but had I had it while re-profiling the Yanagiba, I probably would have used it in hopes of saving hours and a lot of frustration let alone 100g stone wear trying to restore the original geometry.
So, how would you all go about restoring a VG10 Yanagiba to original geometry? Would you bother?
Do you use microbevels with intentions to making maintenue sharpening easier and not even thinking about any desire to go back to the initial geometry?
- edit was to use forum formatting bold vs. IPad text bold which does not actually bold the text…
Cheers,
Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah , and / or happy holidays
Personally, I don’t use microbevels anymore - I really don’t see the point, though I could be wrong. I’ve never sharpened a Yanagiba, but I feel your pain. I had that problem reprofiling my chisels. I finally gave up and ordered some 50/80 stones. Man, did they save me a lot of time and wear & tear on my elbows and shoulders!
But they leave some deep gouges so, I would stop before I got too close to the edge apex with the 50 grit stones. Then take the edges almost to the edge apex with the 80 grit stones. And then on to the edge apex and form burrs with the 100 grit stones, depending on the blade. For my nicer blades, I will take the 100 grit stones to very near the edge apex, and then use the 200 grit stones to reach the edge apex and form my first burrs.
Robert,
I think j I still like microbevels as it makes sharpening or touching-up so much easier and for me, on some knives and tools (like my Marples chisels), it provides a very nice edge at least in my humble experience. AND, as I said, it makes sharpening so much faster,
I do completely follow your concept of grinding with the lower grits to never touch the working edge as then we will have to just grind away all those deep grooves on the edge and as the initial post discussed, I think I have seen evidence of tear out or at a minimum just deep grooves that needed to be smoothed to become as fine of an edge as possible.
On an aside, I’ve now used the Shapton Glass WE stoned mentioned earlier in a few knives and although the slurry and mess created is a bit “messy”, the results and speed seem quite phenomenal. Ultimately, I did re-do the Yanihaba at 16.00 deg starting at 220 grit Shapton and worked up to 8K and must say the process was quite fast and did leave, what I thought, was a much cleaner edge. Frankly, we shall see how stone maintenance winds up. I can easily enough flatten them on a diamond flattening plate but am trying to use “her whole stone”, as much as possible and practical, to minimize wasted stone due to wasted stone removal in the flattening process.
The journey continues and and some point I shall post a new thread about the journey in the WE learning process. For now, I’m spending time with my kids and family as well as continuing to hone my skills (pun intended).
For now, I’ll post this pic of a few hours into 100 grit honing and still clearly not at the apex!
Ps. It’s kind of fun. I’ve learned to save the usb scope pix to a Dropbox director on my Laptop and can now grab from my phone and drop in here after saving to my camera roll. The journey indeed continues !
Probably every edge will look like it has tear-out if you magnify it enough. If I can’t detect it with my fingernail or see it with my lighted magna-visor, then I don’t worry about it.
I also use the entire surface of my stones as much as possible as you do. You also have to remember to use a light touch with the diamond stones. I still catch myself occasionally using too much pressure.
Marc is the Japanese steel expert around here. I have no experience with the steels. I’m sure that he will chime in when he gets a chance.
Yes I get the all stones and diamonds scratch! It’s the level f scratches that county, and your fingernail test is semi- akin to a “cut a pice of paper - phone book or copier - and if it cuts smooth, Irish hi good enough.
yes Mark seems to have Japanese knife experience and I’ve learned a lot from reading his posts and blog. Looking forward to re-reading for the fourth time some of his stuff! And gaining experience!
Best!
I reserve the light pressure only rule for unbroken in stones. When working with well broken in stones, I use pressure commensurate with my sharpening mediums for the jobs I’m doing, at the time. If I’m scrubbing at the start of a reprofile I’ll use more applied pressure and as I get the steel removing as I’m wanting, I’ll then back off on the pressure. Some sharpening jobs require that I use quite a bit of applied pressure. Afterall, it is a tool and I use it as I need to, to get the job done. I reserve the “light touch” for the lighter, finer grits when I’m into the polishing stages of my sharpening progressions.
Henry,
Based on my experiences with whetstones I prefer to lap my stones more frequently than less often. If the whetstone’s ends aren’t hardly worn you won’t have to waste or give up much stone thickness if you level out or lap the stones with just lightly used, slightly bellied stone centers. I believe the whetstones work better when kept as flat as you can. I usually lap mine every knife or at most every other knife, depending on their wear. Also cleanly lapped stones cut better than used whetstones.
Here’s a good video on lapping technique:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVNFEAiMjzU
Hint: Using longer guide rods with upper and lower stone stops allows you to use more of the full lengths of your sharpening mediums more efficiently and effectively.
[quote quote=57358]
I use pressure commensurate with my sharpening mediums for the jobs I’m doing, at the time. If I’m scrubbing at the start of a reprofile I’ll use more applied pressure and as I get the steel removing as I’m wanting, I’ll back off on the pressure. Some sharpening jobs require that I use quite a bit of applied pressure. Afterall, it is a tool and I use it as I need to. I reserve the “light tough” for the lighter, finer grits when I’m into the polishing stages of my sharpening progression. Hint: Using longer guide rods with upper and lower stone stops allows you to use more of the full lengths of your sharpening mediums more efficiently and effectively.[/quote]
I tend to use a little more pressure on up/down strokes, and on chisels. I agree with using the longer guide rods and stone stops.
Mark,
Thanks.
The Jende vid is good. It’s consistent with all other all good vids on lapping whetstones.
And yes, you’re right about keeping the whetstones flat. Always. I follow your frequent process on my larger stones pretty religiously and thanks for the tip/reminder to do the same in the WE.
Nice hint on 1- use the longer rods. - check- done. And 2- use the upper and bottom stops … hmmmm… may need to treat myself to those soon.
Are you still “preferring” the Shapton pro Kuromaka stones from EBay seller you recommended?
I’m assuming from multiple other threads of yours that you use those for most Japanese knives/steels, particularly the high hardness, powder “tec”, thin blade knives. Any other whetstones come up in your rotation fairly frequently and if so, what steels do you lean on them for and why?
Oh yea, thanks for the tip on using the pressure “you feel appropriate” at various sharpening stages. I have to believe that diamonds really don’t need high pressure even when “roughing out” a bevel, but it’s nice to hear from you that you may lean in a bit more heavily for rougher work while still getting more and more delicate for the polishing.
<p style=“text-align: left;”>Peace!</p>
Of the two Shapton stones, the more expensive, Shapton Glass Stone sets are my preference. The same eBay guy made those sets for me too. He also made me several other sets of other brands of whetstones. I haven’t used all my different whetstones sets with enough of a variety of steels types to be able to correlate steel hardness with a preferred brand of stone set for that steel. So far, if I had to choose just one favorite stone for all-around use it’d be Shapton Glass Stones. When funds have to be more of a consideration the Shapton K. Pro Stones are the second choice. These Shapton stones are “splash and go” stones and much less messy to use then whetstones that require soaking before use.
I prefer to use whetstones to diamond stones in most instances for sharpening my personal knives. They’re more steps involved to use the non-magnetic whetstones. They’re somewhat messy and more time consuming, to use them, too. The whetstones cut faster, cut smoother and with more consistency in their scratch patterns. They can be used well with all steels. Even the new high-tech, super hard powdered, high-speed tool and crucible steels. Whetstones do wear away and are consumed as you use and maintain them. Even still, I just prefer the results.
To Shapton glass or not at this early stage of my journey. That is the question. <i>Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous outlay, Or to take arms against a sea of perhaps troublesome steels, And, by trying the Glass, have another tool to try.</i>
Lol, ok, I’m leaning towards using my diamonds on sub 61 ish Rockwell steels and the Shapton Pro Kuromaku for a while on harder thin Japanese knives and gaining experience before plunging down beaucoup de dollars on the glass.
But, I’ve been reading and seeing vids on Shapton glass for probably decades as I’ve enjoyed 30 bench whetstone, I’ve never had the experience with them and somehow feel this may be the calling.
That’s all. My post dinner rabble du-jour.
I too have been having trouble with my 110sv Spyderco. Never been able to make it push cut sharp. I know my stones are broken in lol. Been forever since I posted here. I am glad to see Tom and Mark posting!! Those 2 helped me so much in the past. Turns out that s110v is very finicky with heat treatment. I will not go into the details of the metallurgy transformation. That can be found on Knife Nerds. If not done just so, it can be nice and hard but create a devil of a micro burr. I have tried grinding off the edge flat with 1000 grit perpendicular (removing the apex) and sharpened only edge leading (stone above edge and down into it) as to try and not create a burr at all. I think it still does somehow. 400 is as low as I go. I believe I am seeing micro burrs in a few of your good scope pictures. This is the only steel that I have not beat yet in over a decade of using the WE sharpener. It will get shaving sharp. And it will not stay sharp for very long. I need to get out the microscope! I had been using a nice stereo microscope at work to check it often as I use it. So if it is not a micro burr, then it is micro chipping. I use all diamonds. 17deg each side. If it is micro chipping, I will start to add a 20deg micro bevel to see if that helps. That is what I had to do with my ZDP blade. Thanks for the thread and pictures!
I looked over the pictures again and it looks like there is a micro-burr in almost all of them because of how the light is coming off the apex. At that magnification I do not think we could even see carbide tear out can we? A carbide is small. We can see chipping and maybe the tear out you are seeing is the micro-burr torn off. The left circle was a chip at one point and looks like it was never fully removed. But the rest all look like micro-burrs. Which I have not figured out how to remove on this steel.
After years of trying to sharpen tools and knives and reading about how to sharpen and trying out so many ideas and methods - I have discovered that I don’t know a lot. That said the author of scienceofsharp.com says that WE can’t do a good job with S110V. He is in the process of publishing a three-part article on his website about sharpening S110V.
As for 50/80 stones for reprofiling - I have an old Tormek that I inherited for reprofiling/nick removing chisels and plane blades - then I use WE to finish. But that’s just me and I am spending my children’s inheritance because they are far more successful than me.
These newer and newer steels alloys are being devised. Their extreme hardness does present sharpening challenges. I don’t think the issue is with the sharpener used. I think it’s more about the sharpening mediums and the sharpening technique. I’ll admit I don’t have a lot of experience or opportunities to sharpen these newer high tech steels found more commonly of high-end edc and folding knives. When I do sharpen very hard, brittle and chip prone steels I do have good results using whetstones made for W.E.
Somewhere in this thread one of the authors talked about sharpening plane blades. For an interesting technique look up Rob Cosman’s videos using Shapton glass stones to sharpen. Finally, if there is any interest I will post a picture of Shapton stone holders that I had a local plastic fabricator make for me based on my understanding of WE stone geometry.
What I am not so sure about is how close to a certain angle setting does one have to get to sharpen nearly perfectly and how quickly can one sharpen a blade to near perfection. Too bad there is variation in WE stone geometry.
There are some Wicked Edge haters out there and I don’t believe any of them. I have to deal with them occasionally. But diamonds are diamonds… One of these days I’ll get a blade made with S110V steel and sharpen it up very sharp with my Wicked Edge. 
I find this thread fascinating and pretty much, well above my comprehension. It’s just another example of how much I don’t know. Lol.