[quote quote=“EamonMcGowan” post=9486]Well you guys are making me rethink what I’m doing and I’m grateful! My original route was to go with the new arms and 2k/3k choseras? Now I’m going with Phil and if I have this right? A set of
800/1000 choseras followed up with a set of 2k/3k choseras and that I really do not need the upgraded arms? A new set with the new washers would be fine? Sorry to veer a little of thread?[/quote]
Bob is right about the arms… they make things a bit easier when changing stone thickness. That being accepted… If I had the coice between a set of stones and the new arms… I would go with the stones every time. Bob pointed this out too, but I will say it with emphasis… I used the original arms for over two and a half years, and never found using them to be a handicap. I agree, the new ones are incrementally better, but you can get as good an edge with the original arms…and the arms don’t sharpen the kinife, the stones do.
The newer arms set will not get you a mirror edge, but the right stones will.
It is all a matter of priorities (unless one has unlimited funds, then get it ALL ), mine would definitely be with the additional stones.
[quote quote=“PhilipPasteur” post=9489]
If I had the coice between a set of stones and the new arms… I would go with the stones every time. Bob pointed this out too, but I will say it with emphasis… I used the original arms for over two and a half years, and never found using them to be a handicap. I agree, the new ones are incrementally better, but you can get as good an edge with the original arms…and the arms don’t sharpen the kinife, the stones do.
The newer arms set will not get you a mirror edge, but the right stones will.
It is all a matter of priorities (unless one has unlimited funds, then get it ALL ), mine would definitely be with the additional stones.
Phil[/quote]
+1 on that - thanks for the emphasis Phil (and for sharing all your experience with the Choseras), couldn’t agree more :cheer:
Ok guys, a lot has been thown out in this thread. What I am wondering is since the 5 and 3.5 diamond paste are ( 5 and 3.5 are microns) and the 1200 and 1600 ceramics are ( 5 and 2.85 microns) won’t you get about the same finish by using either the ceramic stones or the paste as far as a mirror finish goes?
I will look for threads later where we as a community have tossed this around before…
Now I will just say, not really.
One of the things that I really struggled with when I got back into precision sharpening several years ago was separating grit ratings from reality. ( I have been sharpening for over 50 years, and always have been OCD. Alway happpy with my results…then came the Internet and unlimeted DIS-information…damn :unsure: )
The ceramics, the Shaptons, the Choseras, Atoshis… etc… and above all the the different pastes all act entirely differently when applied to steel.
I can’t emphasize this enough, grit size is an extremely rough guide to understanding what an abrasive does at the edge. You need to know the shape of the abrasive, you need to know how it fractures under pressure, you need to know the concentration of the abrasive, you need to understand the binder and the stiffness of the substrate, ..Then you may begin to know what it does at the edge. Then you will have to understand how all of the previous data applies to different steels..
Then you will give in and figure out that you just can not compare abrasives by reading about them or comparing charts of grit sizes.
The ceramic stones do not have a specific grit. They are measured in surface roughness and loosely translated into a grit rating. You simply cannot directly compare them, other than using them and observing the results, to any other abrasive…period.
Clay has talked about this specifically. I can’t now find the thread. I think that Syderco uses the same manufactuer as the WEPS gets the microfine ceramics from, Coorstech… here is a quote from Sal…the owner of Spyderco
[quote]"I would be curious as to where you got your numbers for the ceramic stones. All of the ceramics use the same micron size (15-25). the different grits (equivalents) are created by different carriers, different firing techniques and diamond surface grinding.
The pastes are also very hard to compare to anything, except other pastes in the same line. It has been well established that a one micron paste from one manufacturer will show significantly different results.. through actual photo micrographs, than that from another. The biggest difference here is concentration of the abrasives. But it goes beyond that. There are mono and poly crystaline diamonds and there is CBN. All can be rated at a specific micron size, but the break down differently. They can all be rated at the same micron size as the mean, but the distribution around the mean will be different.
Bottom line, the ceramics will do a specific thing for you, they will cut consistently. Once you know what they do, you can employ them effectively in your progression. When you try to compare a specific micron size of paste to an equivlently rated ceramic… well you can’t!
The WEPS diamond pastes will give you some polish, and the will remove some scratches…given time. As Clay has shown, they will refine an edge. In any reasonable amount of time, they will not do what the ceramics do as far as removing metal.
Take a look at these links.. hopefully you will get an idea of where I am coming from.
Just a mea culpa here.. I have spent countless hours in the past calculating grit siazes of different abrasives and buying things based on that. I wasted lots of money and time. I have countless stones, slurrys, abrasive papers, coumpounds, glass plates, granite plates… only to find I don’t use much of it at all.
Better to listen and learn and sharpen more, than to compare charts…
Thanks Phil. I guess the best way to understand the intracasies (not sure I spelled that right) of knife sharpening, other than reading this forum (which is awesome) is to do some experimenting with different stones, ceramics and pastes in different combinations to see what results I prefer. I get the jist of what you were saying, just trying to reduce as many trial and errors as possible.
WE just sent me an e-mail letting me know that my PP1 was mailed out yesterday so I should receive it around Monday and that is when the fun starts. I doubt I will ever have 50 years experience under my belt as that would put me well over 100 but I’ll have fun trying to get there. You and many others on this forum seem to have extensive knowledge about sharpening so I’ll most likely be picking a few brains.
I doubt that you would have had time to look at the links I listed in my reply above by now in their entirety…
Please take the time to do that. You will learn much. Both are pretty long… but it took a long time for Clay to document the information… this micrograph thing is time intensive..
You we will be well served by going through every frame.. and every comment…and absorbing it all!
I promise!
There is no instant gratification in this art… but all of the time you take in research will be rewarded in the reduction of the slope of learning curve that you must traverse.
Phil thank you so much for all of your hard work! There is so much here it is hard to take it all in and digest it all. I will however follow your lead and buy the choseras. I spoke with Bob at Oldawans again today and he is going to make up some customs stones for me. We decided on 1k/2k and a 3k/5k stones. I’m not a well to do sort of guy? But I am going to get the ball joint arms as well.
Hopefully this will hold me over for a little while? Thank you again!
[quote quote=“EamonMcGowan” post=9499]Phil thank you so much for all of your hard work! There is so much here it is hard to take it all in and digest it all. I will however follow your lead and buy the choseras. I spoke with Bob at Oldawans again today and he is going to make up some customs stones for me. We decided on 1k/2k and a 3k/5k stones. I’m not a well to do sort of guy? But I am going to get the ball joint arms as well.
Hopefully this will hold me over for a little while? Thank you again![/quote]
I am sure you will be happy with the items that you ordered, and you will get great results. Please keep us posted on your progress.
Just my 2 cents to add to this (interesting!) topic.
My favorite progression for a mirror finish is 1200 ceramics - 1600 ceramics - 5K Chosera - 10K Chosera.
I started doing this after Tom’s suggestion for a “horizontal move” on the grit progression chart - as you can see the 1600 ceramics have about the same grit size as the 5K Chosera’s. It works perfectly!
As far as I know, the 1200 - 1600 grit ceramics are currently not available, but the currently available ceramic stones have similar (not the same) grit ratings.
Does anyone know the “grit rating” on the micro fine ceramics?
Mark, looking at a set of choseras. Currently have the micro fine ceramics, and was thinking I would progress from them to a set of 2k/3k choseras. Now you throw the 5k/10k and say that works well. Looking at one set for now and want the most bang for my buck progression wise.
5k/10k Choseras are going to give you a much higher degree of reflectivity than you’ll get from the micro fines. I finish most of my working knives with the micro fines and they leave (visually) a light haze with distinct scratch marks under a loop. I don’t think they work quite as low as their 1.4μ/.6m rating, but they leave a nice clean edge for most things.
I think you’ll be happy going from the micro fines to 2k/3k Choseras, JMO. Then you can add the 5k/10k if you want it even more refined at some point.
Phil made an accurate remark on ceramic stones and grit rating. That said, I find the 1200/1600 stones fit in quite well according to their grit rating.
As to the microfine ceramics, I think the general opinion is that the coarse ones may be a little more coarse than the 1200 and the fine ones a little finer than the 1600 stones. But I find it hard to tell.
I think you can safely go from the microfine ceramics to the 5K Chosera’s. But you can always first buy the 5K/10K Chosera’s and if you’re not satified, add more.
The best bang for your buck progression would be the 2K/3K stones.
They will give you most of the mirror for 30% less in cost…and make it much easier to remove the lower grit…including the ceramics…of any grit, scratches.
[quote quote=“Sauce” post=9575]Does anyone know the “grit rating” on the micro fine ceramics?
Mark, looking at a set of choseras. Currently have the micro fine ceramics, and was thinking I would progress from them to a set of 2k/3k choseras. Now you throw the 5k/10k and say that works well. Looking at one set for now and want the most bang for my buck progression wise.
How is an answer to this possible.. really. What do you mean?
Without going back and looking for reciepts and knife sharpening logs.. I can’t hardly give you an opinion, let alone a definitve answer.
I would guess that I have had my Chosera stones for over 1.5 years… BUT some came sooner than others..
I am jealous of those that order all of them at one time. I think it took me about 8 months. I started with the 400/600 and the 800/1K… was thrilled, but never happy knowing that there is [color color=#0000bb]MO -Bettah [/color]stuff out there [color color=#4400ff](Mo-bettah[/color] is relative…think of an anal retentive guy that has to have 0.025 micron on nanocloth strops…Then figures out that it is pretty much useless for everday sharpening).
The last ones that I got were the most expensive ones.. the 5K/10K
I have been using up to the 1000 grit diamonds for as long as I have had them. This takes a bunch of the work form the 400/600 Choseras… as well as the 800/1000. I could give a knife count, but I would be lying…I just don’t know. It has been a bunch… but I have used the different stones a significantly different number of times over that undefined number of knives anyway.
Synopsis: The 400/600, after flattening three times are about 85% of the original thickness. The 800/1000 maybe 85/80…I use the 1K lots more. the 2K/3K one flattening, close to 90% the 5K/10K …well damn, I kind of screwed up the 10K…and it hurt my feelings badly. I had some chipping, so I fixed them… too much diamond plate. I would say 85+% on th 5K… maybe 75% on the 10K..mostly from over agressive maintenance..
Now..what does that tell you…?? I didn’t take actual measurements..just eyeball.. no actual numbers..
I think that , given proper use, and maintenance, the choseras should be around for several hundreds of sharpenings.. several.
Some of this also doesn’t go with the conventional wisdom that the coarser grit will wear faster… this is given equivalent use…which I haven’t done with mine.
I am sure it was not what you were looking for… But then, I am not even sure of that. A vague question can get no more than a vague answer.. sorry
:evil:
Why do you ask? Do you have what you consider to be excessive wear. better than expected longevity???
How are yours doing?
), mine would definitely be with the additional stones.
You and many others on this forum seem to have extensive knowledge about sharpening so I’ll most likely be picking a few brains.
