Am I over thinking this?

Legacy Forum Archive thoughtstheoriesscience-related-to-sharpening
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I’m just a home cook that likes really sharp kitchen knives. When I prep my dinner, a sharp blade that just glides through my food makes me smile. Mostly I had a bunch of old knives I’d been using for years. I sharpened them with all different methods. Some with good results and some just so so results. That’s why I bought the WEPS Pro II around a year ago. Now I have a bunch of very sharp knives. When I started using the WEPS I needed to know what bevel angle to set the mangled knife blades to. I did this by researching the internet for factory specs or by reading and searching this Forum and other sharpening forums to determine what the practical and suggested bevel angle was for that particular brand and type of knife and steel.

All of my knives are FFG so they tend to lean left when clamped. After I decided what angle I wanted to sharpen the knife to, I measured the clamping lean, then calculated for the correction and then set the arms with an angle cube and had at it.

So for the past year I actually had been re-profiling my knives. I recorded those setting in my sharpening log so now I refer to my numbers when I sharpen my knives. I did adjust the angles to improve durability and cutting keenness as I continued to use and re-sharpen the knives. All this I learned over time through a lot of reading and interacting on this Forum and a lot of practice sharpening and using my knives.

Of course along the way I slipped and fell down the rabbit hole! Good thing I’m retired, single and have no kids. Now with around 40 kitchen knives and more on order, as I look at this world through a USB microscope, I use diamonds, ceramics, wet stones, lapping films and strops. I keep striving for the perfect feel as I prepare my meals, cutting my food, as I keep checking the Forum for the latest reviews on the Gen 3 vise (or is it vice?) to see if time to order it yet. Let’s not forget all the Band-Aids and bandages for cuts and stabs and a lucky near miss as I only loss the very tippy-tip-tip of one of my fingers on a less than not careful enough leading edge stroke.

With my new knife purchases getting more and more expensive I continue to strive for the elusive perfect cut. I don’t want to change the, possibly perfect, bevel angle set by that little old Japanese man sitting by his sharpening stone in Seki City. Maybe I’m over thinking this but I’m bewildered, how do I determine the factory bevel angle the first time I sharpen a new knife?:

• I clamp the knife centering it for the most part
• Using a marker to check for the so called “ sweet spot”
• Then also using the marker with the arms at a very wide angle and with a very fine stone so as not to remove much metal I start to remove the marker.
• I continue to decrease the rod angles working in till I have exposed the factory bevel on both sides of the knife while removing the marker hopefully indicating I have matched the craftsman’s intention. (Then I can start sharpening…removing metal I can never put back.)

The marker is gone. The bevels are exposed. So what is the actual bevel angle the artisan ground this knife to? The knife is hand made so the bevels are not even from left side to right side. The little old Japanese guy who’s been working in his grandfather’s factory for 78 years doesn’t care about this. He just makes a sharp knife.

I can measure the leftward lean from clamping the FFG knife and the angle the stones ended up at with the angle cube. Is there a way to then calculate the inclusive bevel angle so to record it in my log for perpituity? Do I just record the clamped knife position settings and the individual arm angles and leave it at that? Do I even out the uneven bevels because I’m OCD? Do I re-profile the knife because the angles I read with my magnetic electronic digital angle cube and that I visually rechecked with my high powered electronic digital USB microscope plugged into my Smartphone don’t make sense with what I think I’ve learned from reading in the Forums?

The knife was sharp as heck when it came out of the box. I know if I change it I’m always going to think that it was better when I got it. I wish there were “do-overs” when sharpening knives. That little old guy is laughing at me. Am I over thinking this? That damned rabbit.

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Think honorable thoughts and send your most sincere respect into the ether, knowing that that little old Japanese man will know what is in your heart. Then sharpen the damn knife any way you see fit. Once you’ve cut the cord, it’s your baby. It’s your knife. The factory edge, no matter how it’s made is only the first of many edges the knife will have in its lifetime.

Oh, and it’s VISE, not vice. Your WEPS has a vise. Your obsession is a vice.

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Hah! Another kitchen knife nut.

A couple of things came up when I read your post. It is quite easy to clamp a FFG knife straight. Tips are all over this forum and the wiki, but I use some thick tape. Works really well.

The marker method is a good way to determine the angle a knife has been sharpened at. But since you’re OCD, you may want to try a goniometer. Like this one: http://www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/lgpm.htm . This is a pretty expensive version. Catra used to make a cheaper version, which I’ve got. It works quite well. Maybe they still make it and I didn’t search for it well enough.

And I really liked Miami Vice. In the UK they call a clamp-thing a vice. In the US it’s a vise. Sinn is vice in both countries. What the heck, in the Netherlands a clamp-thing is a bankschroef.

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From what you wrote I believe you are working with double-bevel Japanese knives. Before you do anything else read as much as you can about asymmetric bevels, and try to talk with someone who has some understanding of their design. (Perhaps Jon at http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com – he seems both knowledgeable and easy to talk to.) Very possibly you do not want to use the same angle on both sides of the blade.

I’m pretty sure he knows that or he wouldn’t have made the joke. :wink:

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Seems? IS! Highly recommended, good idea Mr Wizard! Jon’s YouTube channel is a great place to start. (Warning: this will cost you a lot of time.)

https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports

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I wrote “seems” only because I am not qualified to judge.

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Sorry if I offended anyone. At the late hour, I thought I was being funny as hell. 'Need to use those smiley faces more often.

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Thanks for the replies. I’m glad you guys understand my sarcasm, attempts at humor, and often rhetorical questions. Hopefully you can relate to the pleasure, gratification, knowledge and experience I’ve gained along this journey to learn how to sharpen my knives. Oh and also, maybe a perceived Forum brotherhood.

Tom you’ve been very helpful to me along the way. No offence here. :slight_smile: I’ve used more Band-aids this year than all my years growing up.

Right now I am using painter’s tape and chamois to correct for the clamping cant. That’s why I’m so interested in the Gen 3 vice and stay abreast of the new user’s posts. I have spent hours watching Japanese Knife Jon’s videos. He is quite knowledgeable.
So far, my acquisitions have steered towards knives advertised or specified to be 50/50 double bevel. I’ve mostly settled on the familiar Western Style handled Japanese knives because of the interesting variety of designs, sizes, shapes, and specifically the price point for the different steels available. I have a couple of Wa handled knives too, that I like real well.

Mark76, can you ever really have too many Santokus?

I have looked at Catra’s Hobby Laser Goniometer for some time now. I tell myself that I can keep working with what I’ve got and further refine that skill. After all, it doesn’t really matter whether its 15dps, 16dps or 14.5dps when I have paper thin cucumber slices. They’re personal use knives. I’m the only customer to complain to me if it’s not to my liking. The one knife was sharp enough to remove my fingertip with what only felt like a tiny tug. Ironically, I really don’t like that knife because the steel, maybe poorly heat treated, seems to crumble, and it’s not near as sharp as other much less expensive, easier to sharpen knives I have.

I really enjoy just sharpening and using the sharp knives. I’m trying to determine why three different VG10 steel gyotos sharpened with the same attempted care and technique behave so differently? My WEPS purchase turned into a fun hobby, sometimes intellectually stimulating and sometimes frustrating. Besides when I get it right, super sharp and very durable, I have to buy a new knife. Something to clamp in my WEPS to mess with.

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Some factory edges are just not very good, 18 on one side, 20 on the other, more at the tip, less at the heel. Set it to what you want. For starters try 20 degrees per side. I have some slicers at 15 dps. I had a santuko that does a lot of chopping at 15, the edge didn’t hold up as well as I liked so I took it to 20 dps. I have found some steels hold up well at 15 dps (pocket knives) but other steels I have to take up to 20.

Based on the following spelling tips it would mean a vice is not a sinn :evil: if you spell it vise. :whistle: (or just think vise in your head).