A newb's question on progression

Legacy Forum Archive thoughtstheoriesscience-related-to-sharpening
1

So here goes my first ‘real’ question.

I’ve purchased the pro-pack along with the Super Fine Ceramic stones.

So then, my progression would be:
100/200
400/600
800/1000
Ceramics (I don’t see them on the site any more and forget the grit rating)
5/3.5 Leather Strops

So, me being one who doesn’t have the budget to go to the Chosera or Shapton lineup of stones… Now they are offering the Micro Fine Ceramics area at 1.4 and .6 microns. Where would this go in my progression?
Would I actually use these after stropping since the micron ratings are finer? Seems counter-productive to me to go from the polish of a strop back to a hard ceramic even though it’s technically “finer”.

I was also thinking of getting a set of the 1 and .5 micron strops later as a final polishing step.

Does that make sense? Essentially, where would you put the Micro Fine Ceramics in the lineup?

(edit: correction)

2

I would think that you would go through your progression with all of the stones first then strop with the diamond compounds. It has been mentioned here, especially by Clay in some of his progressions (with photmicrographs) that going slightly “backwards” in grit on the leather even for just a few strokes will get you significant edge improvement.

Part of reason for this is that there just isn’t as much abrasive involved in the diamond compounds from WE as there is in the stones. Part of the result is due to the small amount of convexing that you get with the leather. Anyway, I always go through my progesssions with my stones and then move to the strops for final edge refinement (and to satisfy my OCD). Of course, in this case as in most, there can be exceptions. Perhaps you may want to finish with a micro bevel just using your finest stones… and leave it at that.

After experimentation and depending on the steel in play… and what you will use the blade for, you may well decide that you don’t need to put a micro bevel on the edge nor strop at all after the ceramics, regardless of whether you finish with the super or micro fine versions.

Play with it and see what makes you happy. The beauty of the WEPS system is that it allows you to do this easily and with a high level of repeatability.

Phil

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The Ceramics are 1200/1600, or 5 & 2.8 micron.

I look at it a bit differently. Leather, because it isn’t a hard backing, will put a different finish on the edge than the hard ceramics or diamonds. It may start a little convex at the very edge. Leather also tend to polish a bit finer than their rating. So I don’t move based on grit, but I wouldn’t go from a hard surface diamond or ceramic, to leather, than back to a hard surface. So, I would buzz thru all the diamonds/ceramics, then, if I want to use the leather, start with the highest one I had and work down. This will also help polish out the previous grit, if that’s what you’re aiming for.

There are no hard and fast rules though… I’ve used a fine leather after a 1000g diamond stone, just to clean up the edge a bit. Maybe try a 1600g ceramic after a 600g diamond, just to see what the results are. Not necessarily looking to polish out the previous grit, maybe you might like a “toothier” finish, but clean it up at the edge a bit. I just wouldn’t go from a hard backing to a soft, then back to a hard. Once I move into leather, I would stay with it.

Hope that makes sense.

cbw

4

Thanks Philip and cbwx34 for your insight.

cbwx34,
Me, knowing zero about this process other than what I’ve read, your reply is kinda what I was leaning towards, my only concern being the increase in grit from the 1.4 / .6 ceramics to the 5 / 3.5 strops. But that makes sense to go from the finest stone/ceramic to finish off with the strops. I will certainly be experimenting a lot as well. I’ve got some Loops on order from Amazon.

I say this and I don’t even yet have my Pro Pack! LOL I’m a techie guy so I love to analyse.
My kit arrives tuesday without the Super Fine ceramics. So to complete my “ultimate” set, I’d need to still order the new Micro Fine Ceramics and the 1 & .5 diamond strops. Then I’m sure I’ll be set.

So proposed progression will be this:
[color color=#44bb00]100/200 (shipped)
400/600 (shipped)
800/1000 (shipped)[/color]
[color color=#0000ff]1200/1600 Super Fine Ceramics (ordered, waiting)[/color]
[color color=#bb0044]1.4/.8 Micro Fine Ceramics (need to order)[/color]
[color color=#44bb00]5/3.5 Leather Strops (shipped)[/color]
[color color=#bb0044]1/.5 Leather Strops (need to order)[/color]

5

[quote quote=“ThomasMeeks” post=3603]Thanks Philip and cbwx34 for your insight.

So proposed progression will be this:
[color color=#44bb00]100/200 (shipped)
400/600 (shipped)
800/1000 (shipped)[/color]
[color color=#0000ff]1200/1600 Super Fine Ceramics (ordered, waiting)[/color]
[color color=#bb0044]1.4/.8 Micro Fine Ceramics (need to order)[/color]
[color color=#44bb00]5/3.5 Leather Strops (shipped)[/color]
[color color=#bb0044]1/.5 Leather Strops (need to order)[/color][/quote]

+1 on that progression - I concur with what cbw and Phil are suggesting for working your way though that full line up - don’t go from leather back to hard stones, and “backing up” in grit size when moving to your strops works just fine.

You might consider going with balsa at the 1 and 0.5 strops as it might be able keep you from having to back up to the micro-fine ceramics when you are retouching your knife. This is a big matter of opinion here on moving to balsa or not, but that is where I would do it if you want to go there. I haven’t yet experimented with the nanocloth or kangaroo to see if they will stand up the edge the way balsa will.

Have fun on Tuesday night! (PS in case no one has said it yet - start out with some blades that aren’t that important to you)

6

Tom,
Your progression is just what I was thinking of.
I get the analyze thing. When I got my WEPS all I could get was the stock diamond stones. The 800/1000 diamonds were backordered as were the ceramics. I had all kinds of fun taping 1000 up to 3000 grit sandpaper to my stones, then 3M lapping paper, then cardboard with different grit diamond slurries on it.

I got a couple of loups, then a 40X, pocket microscope, then a 60X, then a 100X, then the 400X Veho USB microscope.

Since, over a several month period, I got a full set of the Choseras.

Point is, now I have information overload on the analysis front. This is too much fun :slight_smile:
(keeps me broke too).

I usuall go theough the diamonds through the 1000 grit, then go back to the 600 grit chosera and through that progression to 2K, then to the 1 micron/0.5 micron strops. This is good enough for push cutting paper and what I use for most of my utility and kitchen knives. When bored, or off on an OCD binge I go up to the 10K chosera (1.7 micron I think, equivalent to the course side of the micro fine ceramics) then the strops 5/3.5,1.0/0.5, 0.25/0.1, 0.05/0.025 all but the last on leather, the last on balsa.

Now we are talking hair splitting sharp, but in use that kind of edge does not last long. It is real pretty and when taken out of the vise, it is impressively, ridiculously, sharp.

I am waiting for some 'Roo and Nano strops so I can obsess some more. I will try those on the four finest grits of Diamond and CBN, just to see what happens …

Anyway, you can look forward to lots of fun and diversion with your new setup. Just take your time, write everything down (repeatability) and enjoy.

Phil

7

[quote quote=“ThomasMeeks” post=3603]So proposed progression will be this:
[color color=#44bb00]100/200 (shipped)
400/600 (shipped)
800/1000 (shipped)[/color]
[color color=#0000ff]1200/1600 Super Fine Ceramics (ordered, waiting)[/color]
[color color=#bb0044]1.4/.8 Micro Fine Ceramics (need to order)[/color]
[color color=#44bb00]5/3.5 Leather Strops (shipped)[/color]
[color color=#bb0044]1/.5 Leather Strops (need to order)[/color][/quote]

+1 to this and all other advice given here. If you get into judging how submicron stones/stropping compounds work, you may indeed consider to get a microscope. You are in the rabbit hole already :lol: .