Roger Herbst

[Roger Herbst]

The pictures of the steeled edge at the beginning of this topic are pretty much what a moderately aggressive (grooved) steeling looks like. Once I get an F. Dick smooth steel I’ll do some analysis of light stroking with both smooth and grooved rods on lightly used blades and post the pics.

Ultimately, I’d like to find a way to do light touch up on the edge without butchering it to the point that I shouldn’t have bothered fine honing it first place. Then again, if you’re only going to hone a knife to 750 grit, then a quick flail with a grooved steel will give you a usable edge that won’t scare your guests.

[Roger Herbst]

Here’s a follow up on smooth steels.

I received a Victorinox “smooth” steel, and tried it on a couple of knives. They immediately seemed duller ! A look at the steel even with the naked eye showed a substantial surface texture, with the texture running across the rod (instead of with it, as in a normal grooved steel). So out came the microscope.

Here’s a picture of a freshly honed blade, with a hair for reference:

Here’s a picture of the surface of the Victorinox “smooth” steel – same magnification as above

Here”s the blade after a few light strokes with the “smooth” steel. Note the roughed-up edge. So disappointing !!!

Conclusion: If you’re looking for a smooth steel, this isn’t it ! I’ll return it and try a “F. Dick” steel, as PhilipPasteur mentioned in his post on this topic.

Attachments:

• 3MicronSharpen1.jpg
• Smoothsteelsurface.jpg
• Edgeaftersteel.jpg

[Roger Herbst]

Thanks to all the posters who have contributed to this topic. I’ve done a bit more testing, and I think we have enough information to draw some pretty good conclusions.

Here are some pictures to illustrate what we’ve learned

1. A knife sharpened to .3 microns, with a hair for size reference. It’s a very cheap knife, which I then beat up a bit.

2,3 The edge after being beat up

4. The edge after steeling with a groove steel

5. Knife re honed, then steeled with a diamond steel

6. I don’t have a smooth steel, but the 1/2 ” of my Henkles steel next to the handle is smooth, so I did what I could with that after re-honing the blade

7 Reality. Paper thin tomato slices, from left to right Cheap knife with grooved steel, cheap knife freshly honed than smooth steeled, and my fav santoku freshly honed. Note the diamond steeled knife isn’t shown…it could not break the skin of the tomato.

Conclusions.
It’s interesting that almost 100 % of the talk about what steels do, including that coming from celebrity chefs, refers to the smoothing effect of a smooth steel, while almost 100% of the steels out there are grooved, and behave completely differently. So much for the wisdom of crowds. On a more practical note, we can conclude that:

1. A freshly honed edge is the ultimate solution

2. A smooth steel will touch up a well honed edge without destroying it. Over time, though, as the edge truly dulls, it will need to be re-honed, as the smooth steel will not remove metal and reshape the edge.

3. Grooved steels are ugly under a microscope, and will completely re cut a honed edge, so I wouldn’t even bother fine honing a blade I intend to steel. That said, they produce an effective edge, and remove enough metal that a grooved steel alone can keep a knife in decent cutting condition, if used properly.

4. My diamond steel is the all time loser. Don’t know why, or if other diamond steels are the same, but the grooved steel produces a much more effective edge.

So I’m pretty satisfied that we’ve gotten to the bottom of this, except we haven’t talked about strops for quick touch ups – I’m playing with them now and may have more on that in the future.

Roger

Attachments:

• 3MicronSharpen1.jpg
• Afterbeingbeatup1.jpg
• Afterbeingbeatup2.jpg
• Afewpassesongroovedsteelaftersmoothsteel.jpg
• CheapKnifere-honedthendiamondSteel.jpg
• Beatupthenafewpassesonsmallsmoothsectionofhenkelssteel.jpg
• Left-CheapknifesteeledMidcheapknifesmoothsteeledRight-FavSantoku.jpg

[Roger Herbst]

Mark

Thanks for the info, though it’s a little pricey for my taste.

I just did a quick survey on Amazon, reading 3 pages of sharpening steel offerings. Only one steel, a Wusthof, mentioned, “Grooved rod improves ease of sharpening”. Wusthof goes on to say “made of magnetic steel that attracts metal fibers during the sharpening process”, indicating that they understand the steel is behaving as a file.

None of the others said anything about grooved or smooth, though the pictures, when good enough, all looked grooved. Interestingly, the description of the “Zwilling J.A. Henckels Twin Pro”, clearly a grooved rod, says “steel doesn’t actually sharpen a knife” , it “serves a vital role by realigning, or “resetting,” kitchen knives’ edges, which bend this way and that when contacting a cutting surface”. Yes they are blindly repeating the mantra that their round file isn’t really a file.

This subject of how to to touch up a blade keeps getting more complicated ! I’ll throw in another complication – a rolled edge almost certainly requires a different treatment than a dulled edge.

[Roger Herbst]

I presume you’re referring to my statement “convex bevel starting at 17 deg and tapering to 18.5 degrees” – That was referring to how I currently fine hone my good knives. I am not currently steeling them.

[Roger Herbst]

Hi Josh:

All 3 steels were grooved. I haven’t seen any smooth steels around – I’ll have to find one.

Nice article you referred to. I still need to do some testing, though.

As for your comment about a “toothy” edge, I suspect it’s partially true, but there may be another force at work. The steel grooves act like a file, carving microscopic shavings off the edge. These resulting shavings, and the substrate they were shaved off, can be VERY sharp.

Unfortunately, I don’t think my cheap microscope can resolve the cutting edge well enough to visually ascertain sharpness, so in the end, I’ll need to do more subjective testing – like slicing tomatoes and carrots

[Roger Herbst]

My use of the steel in the pics was with moderate pressure on a cheap knife, to provide an initial demolition of the “steels do not remove metal” theory. This, of course, undermines the credibility of everything we hear about steels. That said, the thousands or meat cutting professionals who walk around with a steel in their belt probably know something (despite lacking microscopes). The many pieces I’ve read and videos I’ve watched usually say light pressure should be used, so a lot more testing is needed to show a more optimum treatment.

From past experience (before I got a microscope and sub-micron abrasives and became all scientific), I’ve observed the following:

A fine diamond stone followed by 2000 grit sandpaper beats the stone followed by a “Diamond steel”

A fine diamond stone followed by an aggressive steeling beats the above. 2000 grit before the steel had little or no effect….no surprise, since the steel obliterates the original edge.

A finely honed blade beats all of the above.

All of this raises more questions than it answers, doesn’t it ?

[Roger Herbst]

Meant a CONVEX bevel, not concave.

[Roger Herbst]

The previous 2 posts ask a few questions and make a few statements. I’ll address them one at a time as best my current understanding permits.

“steel on steel generally doesn’t remove metal”
……..It does. See attached Pics

“The ceramic rod will do the job of touching up the edge on the fly”
……I don’t have experience with a ceramic rod, but have long used a “diamond steel” which I believe to be around 1000 grit (not sure on that number, I’ll get some pics soon and see if I can confirm or refine it). I’ve used the diamond steel for years, but have never been happy. It always produced a mediocre edge. I recently rediscovered my old steel, and it creates a sharper feeling and faster cutting edge, much to my surprise. Now that I have a microscope, I’m even more surprised how the steel tears up my pretty polished edge, but seems to work in its own way. Hence, my original post. I was kinda hoping someone already researched this paradox.

“What is your final grit when you sharpen you kitchen knives?”
…….Currently, I’ve sharpened them to a .3 micron grit with a convex bevel starting at 17 deg and tapering to 18.5 degrees. I’m going to be redoing them at something more like 20 deg tapered to 21.5 to make them more durable. I’m not sure my pork chop can tell the difference between 5 and .3 microns, but it feels cool taking it all the way.

“maybe you can try to see under the microscope what actually happens”
….OK, looks like I’ve got another project. Here’s what I’ve done so far

I’ve taken a really crappy knife (supermarket type Hampton Forge chefs knife), honed it to 19 degrees, 15 microns, and gave it 6 firm swipes (probably not optimal technique) with 3 different steels, re-honing after each steel. I’m not seeking optimum results on a well honed quality blade here, just showing what a steel does.

The 3 steels used are:
1. An old Chicago Cutlery steel (they used to make reasonably good stuff)
2. A no-name discount store steel
3. A new Henckels steel

The 4 attached pictures are as follows:

Steel 4 The Honed blade before using the steel

steel 5 After using Chicago cutlery steel

steel 7 After using No-Name steel

steel 8 After using Henckels steel

Clearly, all 3 have removed metal. A wipe down of the rods with a paper towel confirms this. The edge, only honed to 15 microns, isn’t pretty any more. It’s even uglier on a finely honed edge. But again, the paradox…..it cuts well. The guys who cut meat all day for a living know this. Not as well as a freshly sub-micron honed blade, but definitely better than my “diamond steel”, or “fine” diamond stone. at some point, a smaller grit size produces a superior cutting edge than a steel. I don’t know where that point is, or how to optimally use a steel in combination with a quality hone.

Unless someone can enlighten me, I’ll have to do some more work on what is an optimal technique, if any, for using a steel on a well honed blade in need of a minor tune up.

Roger

Attachments:

• Steel4.jpg
• Steel5.jpg
• Steel7.jpg
• Steel8.jpg

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