Working Shaptons into a Chosera Progression.

[Phil Pasteur]

Hell All,

I have been itching to start collecting some of the Shapton Stones. Unfortunately I don’t see them listed on the web site anymore. I will ask my question any way in the hopes that they will be back in stock soon, or that I can find an alternate source.

I have the original WEPS diamond hones and I have added the 800/1000 paddles. I usually go through that progression then start “back” with the 400 grit Choseras and go through the 400/600, 800/1000, 2000/3000, then the 5K/10k I noticed something recently and that was that the 5K Chosera was *adding* visible scratches to what looked like a pretty darn good mirror edge left by the 3K Choseras. If I skip that stone, all is good, no visible scratches (naked eye, of course)

This got me to thinking about possibly getting something in the Shaptons in the 5K/10K range (and maybe winning the lottery and going right up through the 30K stones one day 🙂 ). Something, perhaps, that would slot in between the 3K choseras and the 10K stones.

So I am looking for some advice on the best way to fit some of the Shaptons into my progression without having to buy an entire set now. Would I be better off getting some of the lower grit stones and swapping them in for some of the diamonds. Would it be better to just replace my 5K with an equivalent Shapton and leave the rest alone?

I am getting some pretty impressive edges now by just skipping the 5K Chosera and going to the 10K followed by diamonds on leather 6/3 micron, 1/.5 micron, 0.25/0.125 micron, and sometime the 0.05/0.025 micron balsa strops.

I will soon get a set on Kangaroo and a set of nano cloth strops. I am real anxious to try those out with the finer grit Diamond and CBN compounds!

So a few questions:
What happened to the Shaptons on WEPS?
What Shaptons should I buy (if I can get them) to improve my current progression?
Anyone have any thoughts on the scratch producing 5K Choseras?

Any thoughts in general about what I am doing now or how to improve it (we can dispense with the OCD part, I know that is true 🙂 )

Thanks,
Phil

[cbwx34]

Hey Phil…

I’ll start by saying I’ve used both the Choseras and Shaptons freehand, but not on the Wicked Edge, so while I don’t think it matters… thought I’d throw that out there.

I personally would not mix and match. The stones are a different type… the Choseras break down and create a bit of mud, the Shaptons are almost like the ceramics, they’re hard and barely wear… so they cut and work different.

I don’t know how thick the 5K Chosera is that you have, but maybe you could lap it a little, and see if it clears up the scratches you’re seeing. Maybe it got contaminated? Also if it has a little mud on it, don’t clean it off during use.

I haven’t used the Kangaroo / Nano cloth… but from the results Clay got… sounds like it might be a good addition before the Shaptons.

Just my .02.

cbw

[Phil Pasteur]

CBW,
Thanks for the reply!
I have lapped the heck out of my 5K Chosera stones on more than one occasion, hoping that would help. I have also washed them well with liquid soap and hot water. I have rubbed them together well before use to pre-build that precious mud. Since reading Tom’s description of them in use, I leave the slurry/mud in place and just apply a drop or two of water every 25 or so strokes, and redistribute the mud. The Chosera progression in general works well for me.

I did wonder about mixing the types of stones. Then I thought that an abrasive is an abrasive. If the idea is to progress from a coarse to a very fine abrasive and remove the scratches from the previous grit, why should it matter? We go from diamonds, to Choseras, or to Shaptons, or some from diamonds to ceramics. After that we go to various abrasives on leather or balsa. So the progression changes types of abrasives no matter how you do it as the grits get finer. So I am not stating that it would be OK to throw some Shaptons in the progression, I am asking, But, I am not seeing logically why it would not work.

I know lots of people will buy an entire line of abrasives from a specific manufacturer to stay in their selected progression. I also know of some that use natural stones in their progressions. The stones in the progression can be from quarries scattered all over the world, and no two, even from the same quarry, will be identical. Both groups can get outstanding results.

Of course, this is why I decided to ask those who know better. Logic does not always get it when talking about art. Sharpening does seem to turn into an art form when we push the limits as we all seem to do. Experience seems to trump much of the logic.

Again,
Thanks for the reply, and I am not arguing here, just trying to understand and learn.

Phil

[cbwx34]

Hey Phil…

Don’t know what to add about the 5K, maybe someone else will have some ideas.

It’s not just a matter of “an abrasive is an abrasive”. The easiest way is to look at an extreme. You can, for example use sandpaper on top of leather, in grits equal (or at least similar) to a stone, but will get a totally different result. The same is true with using a stone that breaks down (Chosera) vs. one that doesn’t (Shapton). Similar abrasive, different result. And while you’re right there are changes in the progression… like going from diamond to ceramic, or to leather, it’s a complete change, not a mixture, if that makes sense. In other words, once I switch to leather, I don’t switch back to a stone. You’re also right that some sharpeners will add a natural stone… but again it’s usually a finishing stone, not one they add in between other stones… at least that’s the impression I get.

In fact, I overlooked the section in your first post where you stated you go thru all the diamonds, then start over with the 400g Chosera and go thru that progression. If “grits are grits”, why do you do that? Not saying it’s right or wrong, but my guess is, you see a difference doing this vs. going thru the diamond progression to 1000… then starting with the 2000 Chosera and working up?

What I did key on was “I am getting pretty impressive edges now…” with what you have. Looking to improve on that would be trying some of the finer abrasives you mentioned. I just don’t see where a Shapton stone would fit in to what you have and are doing now… other than just to try something different, if that makes sense. (I could add more… just trying to keep the post a reasonable length.) 🙂

Hope that helps.

cbw

[Phil Pasteur]

Good morning,

I used to use, before I got the Chosera set, the Diamonds, followed by various grits of sandpaper, then lapping film, then leather. A bunch of mixing things up. It worked pretty well.

I do get what you are saying, just trying to rationalize it with my concepts about sharpening.

If the goal is, for each move to a finer grit size, to attempt to completely erase the scratches from the last coarser grit used, does it make a difference what made the coarser scratches? In theory, they all should be gone when you are done.

I go “back” to the 400 Chosera because it gets rid of the scratches from the diamonds faster! Of course the numbers for the grits on the diamonds versus the Choseras don’t mean the same thing in absolute grit size either.

I think that if I started with the 120 Shaptons and went through the coarser Shaptons, I probably would not go “backwards” at any point. I would have to play with that though to verify.

Again,
I appreciate yur input!

Phil

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