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The final word on asymmetric by Jonathan Brroida

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  • #23380
    Leo Barr
    Participant
    • Topics: 26
    • Replies: 812

    Leo-

    As for asymmetry, it seems that this is a rather confusing issue for many. Part of the confusion stems from the fact that many of the ways that we describe these asymmetries are gross oversimplifications. For example the ratios like 50/50 or 60/40 don’t really describe anything of substance. Is it the ratio of the percentage of sharpening on each side? Is it a ratio of the angles on each side? In reality it’s neither. No craftsman in Japan it’s there and measures angles or ratios. What really matters is the way that the knife cuts. The asymmetry deals with two main issues-thinness behind the edge and steering. The more asymmetrical a knife is, assuming the angles are equal, the thinner the knife is behind the edge. However, the more asymmetrical the knife is, the more likely it is to steer. It’s also important to keep in mind that the angles are not always equal. When figuring out asymmetry for any given knife, the first thing that you want to do is cut with the knife. When you cut with a knife, you want to assess whether it is steering to the right or to the left, and how easily it moves through the food.

    If you notice that your knife is steering to one direction or the other, You want to create more surface area on the side that it is steering towards so that the knife cuts straight. This can be done by adjusting the angle (either more or less acute) and/or adjusting the amount of time spent sharpening on each side.

    If you notice that the knife is wedging in food as it goes through, this may mean that you need to sharpen at a more acute angle, or that you need to thin behind the edge. Some of this can also be dealt with through adjusting asymmetry, as previously mentioned. Does that make sense?

    -Jon

    So I apologise for my posting previously I was mislead through various articles on the subject.

    Jon was away in Japan so it took almost 8 weeks for an answer although I hasten to add he always replies but he gets stacks of mails and answers them all.
    The only thing I am not certain of from his answer is what food is the best test to see if the knife is steering straight . I have asked him although I can imagine it will in part depend on what purpose the knife has to check the steering.
    If I get anther suggestion from Jon as to what is best to test the steerage of a knife I will post it on this topic.

    I do not imagine that any real negative effects have been found having used my previous notes on asymmetric angles I know my own asymmetrics have been steering fine it does mean that it is real trial & error if you are presented with an asymmetric whose bevels have been lost& it may be a starting point to use the angles I suggested

    Response from Jonathon Broida Japanese Knife Imports

    #23382
    Daniel maloon
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 209

    I agree Leo, I think many people unnecessarily over complicate certain things such as asymmetry.

    #23384
    Pat
    Participant
    • Topics: 16
    • Replies: 114

    I have always been more interested in techniques to sharpen asym edges vs understanding why to make one asym, but I can understand folks seeking to understand both.

    #23393
    Zamfir
    Participant
    • Topics: 17
    • Replies: 346

    I agree Leo, I think many people unnecessarily over complicate certain things such as asymmetry.

    You mean like sharpening at a specific angle to 0.001 deg? .. 😛 😛

    #23397
    Gib Curry
    Participant
    • Topics: 18
    • Replies: 240

    Leo-

    As for asymmetry, it seems that this is a rather confusing issue for many. ………. However, the more asymmetrical the knife is, the more likely it is to steer. It’s also important to keep in mind that the angles are not always equal. When figuring out asymmetry for any given knife, the first thing that you want to do is cut with the knife. When you cut with a knife, you want to assess whether it is steering to the right or to the left, and how easily it moves through the food.

    If you notice that your knife is steering to one direction or the other, You want to create more surface area on the side that it is steering towards so that the knife cuts straight. This can be done by adjusting the angle (either more or less acute) and/or adjusting the amount of time spent sharpening on each side………. Does that make sense?

    10 years ago, talking knives with someone, he had a knife that cut crooked. He couldn’t get it to cut straight. If we had had a big enough piece of cutting material he could have cut a circle.

    He said “I can only seem to get one side of it sharp.” :silly:

    He eventually got a new knife on which he could get both sides sharp.

    The knife was sharp but “steering”.

    ~~~~
    For Now,

    Gib

    Φ

    "Everyday edge for the bevel headed"

    "Things work out best for those who make the best out of the way things work out."

    #23408
    Leo Barr
    Participant
    • Topics: 26
    • Replies: 812

    Hi Gib one thing Iam not clear on is what to use to show if there is a steering problem .Initially I thought that cutting a potao would show up any deviation.now I am thinking that perhaps something deeper would be better perhaps slicing through aslice of what I would call standard sandwich bread.
    I need something that is a good test since it would seem from what Jon say I should check all asymmetric for steerage . I do a Michelin Restaurant that seems to have more asymmetrics than normal knives a loaf of bread would be an inexpencive test if it is a suitable material for testing.

    What has been your experience?

    #23414
    Gib Curry
    Participant
    • Topics: 18
    • Replies: 240

    Hi Gib one thing Iam not clear on is what to use to show if there is a steering problem .Initially I thought that cutting a potao would show up any deviation.now I am thinking that perhaps something deeper would be better perhaps slicing through aslice of what I would call standard sandwich bread.
    I need something that is a good test since it would seem from what Jon say I should check all asymmetric for steerage . I do a Michelin Restaurant that seems to have more asymmetrics than normal knives a loaf of bread would be an inexpencive test if it is a suitable material for testing.

    What has been your experience?

    Let’s see, where do I remember experiencing steering…. long, slicing strokes….

    I recall two different kinds of roasts. The knife seemed fine on very thin pieces, but on a thicker roast it obviously steered to the right. We could get slices of even thickness but the end of the roasts were not “square”.

    Also, in slicing melons like cantaloupe or honeydew.

    There’s got to be enough thickness to reveal the arc.

    Hope that helps…..

    ~~~~
    For Now,

    Gib

    Φ

    "Everyday edge for the bevel headed"

    "Things work out best for those who make the best out of the way things work out."

    #23423
    Leo Barr
    Participant
    • Topics: 26
    • Replies: 812

    Thats helpfull so If I can find a tall stale loaf of bread this should fit the bill.I cannot justify exotic or expensive food to test 8 or 10 asymmetric knives from one restaurant when I am sharpening them.

    Thank you

    if anyone has an idea of how to test for steerage I should be most interested.

    #23434
    Steven N. Bolin
    Participant
    • Topics: 47
    • Replies: 456

    I agree. I definitely over complicate the issue! Mainly because there’s nothing that seems simple about this…

    :huh:

    I’d love to see some examples of poor steering, if you gentlemen feel up to providing some?.

    ~Steven

    #23437
    Steven N. Bolin
    Participant
    • Topics: 47
    • Replies: 456

    Ok… so… from what I understand the steering issue may be caused by the cutting edge/line being skewed to one side or the other from the blade centerline. This in turn puts too much mass on either side. Therefore, since the mass of the material is not distributed symmetrically (regardless of the edge’s asymmetrical geometry), when applying pressure along a vector, the cut inevitably becomes scewed as a result… I guess? :unsure:

    http://www.chefknivestogoforum.com/sharpening-with-a-ep-on-non-50-50-grind-t7468-10.html

    ~Steven

    #23451
    Steven N. Bolin
    Participant
    • Topics: 47
    • Replies: 456

    I thought I was beginning to wrap my head around this… But the more I play around with a single bevel kitchen knife I feel myself getting more and more confused. :S

    Anyone care to help further explain or willing to open up some more dialogue?

    #23525
    Leo Barr
    Participant
    • Topics: 26
    • Replies: 812

    To continue on the subject I have read that using Ballistic Gel gives a practical medium to gauge steerage & the gel can be recycled.I have yet to get some to try out since I sharpen quite a few asymmetrics .
    I shall update once I have made up the gel I read that there is quite a science in preparing it I shall purchase a thermometer for the purpose.

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